120V Cable Heating: Why not?
Contents:
- substrate heating cables
by William.Keith.Brummett-at-att.com (Wed, 19 Apr 1995)
- Elec. and Water and a Question
by TAYLORDA-at-aol.com (Sat, 22 Apr 1995)
- Heating Cable voltage: Physics Lesson :)
by Erik Olson <(e-mail)> (Thu, 20 Apr 1995)
- Cooner Wire
by krandall-at-world.std.com (Karen A Randall) (Tue, 5 Mar 1996)
- Under gravel Heat Cables
by "Schenck, Lyndle" <lschenck/dcscorp.com> (Tue, 7 Nov 2000)
- Under gravel Heat Cables
by George Booth <booth/frii.com> (Thu, 09 Nov 2000)
- Aquatic Plants Digest V4 #1388-RE M3 heat cables
by "S. Hieber" <shieber/yahoo.com> (Wed, 7 Nov 2001)
- Questions on Under Gravel Heat systems
by "James Purchase" <jpurch/interlog.com> (Thu, 21 Sep 2000)
by William.Keith.Brummett-at-att.com
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995
> From: trigg-at-jane.cs.waikato.ac.nz (Len Trigg)
>
> A couple of weeks ago I was in our local fish shop and mentioned
> to the owner about using substrate heating cables for plant
> tanks, and from the back of one of his shelves he pulled out a
> 25W heating cable made by an outfit called Renacor (or something
> like that - I can look it up when I get home). He said he'd had
> it sitting there for ages. ...
> The main difference between these cables and the Dupla/Dennerle
> systems is these use mains voltage rather than low voltage (which
> in turn means lower current than Dupla/Dennerle). I'm not sure
> what this means safety-wise (I think that lower currents are
> less likely to kill), but I plan to use a GFI for safety anyway.
Len,
I *would not* put 120VAC heating cables into an aquarium, GFCI or not.
Yeah, the current is the bullet that kills you, but it's the voltage
that pulls the trigger. Example -- a car battery can dump a kiloamp
with ease, but it doesn't have enough voltage to push that current
through your body resistance, so you can safely pick up the charged
battery by its bare terminals without lighting up your life. If you
could find a *really* high-wattage 120VAC cable, like a kilowatt or
so, you might be able to get a decent amount of heat from it using a
24V transformer or some other low-voltage device, but I doubt that
you'll find such a cable.
-- Keith
| Keith Brummett Ofc: 614-860-3187 AT&T, Room 3B202 |
| w.k.brummett-at-att.com Fax: 614-868-4106 6200 E. Broad St. |
| wbrummett-at-attmail.com R,DW,HAHB! Columbus, OH 43213 |
`----------------------------------------------------------------------'
by TAYLORDA-at-aol.com
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995
I have been subscribed to the list for a couple of weeks now. I have been
following the thread on substrate heating and would like to offer this
perspective.
To support my aquatic planting I work as a lighting designer for a very large
theme park firm and am quite familiar with electricity in water. It is our
policy to use only low voltage lighting underwater. Yes, it's possible to
legally use line (mains) voltage with GFI protection but we just won't do it
if we can avoid it at all. This goes double for Europe and 220volts (pun
intended). Glass tube heaters aside, I would not build my own substrate
heater on anything more than 24volts. Its not worth it.
That speech over, I would like to ask if anyone can tell me the actual name
for a plant sold to me as an "Octopus Plant"? Like the name implys it has
many wild/thin tubular arms and make an interesting focus piece.
Thanks
David Taylor
TAYLORDA-at-aol.com
by Erik Olson <(e-mail)>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995/1996
Len Trigg writes (regarding heating cable voltages):
> Well, I did think about this before I bought them, but I figured these
> cables would be no more dangerous than a standard aquarium heater which
> also uses mains voltage. As long as I take appropriate precautions
> (GFI, fuses, turning the appliances off before putting arms and legs in,
> keeping oscars and other chew-happy fish out of the tank), I'm willing to
> take the risk. But I'm also interested in hearing some more detailed
> explanations on exactly how much more dangerous the 240V,0.3A option
> is over the 12V,6.25A option.
Sure thing. Let us say that the water in your tank has a finite
resistance R. Then if there is a break in your heating cable, it will
allow voltage V to flow directly through the water. Ohm's law tells us:
V = I * R
Since the water has a constant resistance, the current through the water
will be proportional to the voltage V. The key here is not the current
rating of the CABLES, but rather how much current you can have if the
mains voltage will become exposed. The 240 volt system allows TEN TIMES
as much current to run through the tank as a 24 volt system.
But that's not the end of it! There's also the issue of what happens when
you merely expose the mains leads to the water (a more likely scenario).
Let's look at the resistance of the heating element itself. Let us consider
comparable 24 volt and 240 volt heating elements that must provide similar
power P (wattage). Again, electronics tells us:
P = I * V = V * V / R or R = V * V / P
The resistance of a wire providing the same wattage goes as the intended
voltage squared. The point of this is that the 240 volt wire is 100
times more resistive than the 24 volt one.
Now what happens if, say, the insulation doesn't completely work between
your power cord and the heating cable. The mains voltage is now
exposed directly to the water. The current now has a choice...
continue to go through the cable, or through the water. With the 24 volt
cable, most of the current will continue to pass through the cable, because
of its low resistance. With a 240 volt cable, most of the current will pass
through the WATER!
Some other thoughts: Yes, you sort of run the same risk with your normal
tube heater. However, the tube heater is easier to detect some failures
(ie, broken glass, a half-filled tube, etc) and certainly easier to
replace. Heating cables are inherently more delicate. GFCs and breakers
will help reduce the shock risk in either situation.
- ---
Dr. Erik D. Olson licensed and bonded to teach High School
(e-mail) Physics over e-mail. :)
by krandall-at-world.std.com (Karen A Randall)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996
> Well, I received today in the mail two samples of wire from Coo
> Wire. I read about them in the Krib/Plants/Tech series of articl
> DIY substrate heating so I gave them a call. The gentleman I've
> with was extremely helpful and sent me samples of the silicone r
> coated and the PVC coated one, both in 36 gauge. Unfortunately t
> are very, very thin (O.D. .0258, it doesn't say if that's inches
> mm). I was hoping they would be similar to the EKG hook-up wire
> have at work, which is a thick 1/8" silicone coated. The Dupla o
> are 1/8" too so, until I setup the big tank, bye-bye substrate h
Just a note on thin coated wire for DIY substrate heating. Our
local club decided to use one of my tanks as a "Guinea Pig" for
DIY substrate heating cables. The only wire that the person who
put together the system could find was quite fine. When the
cables were first installed, they were checked with a continuity
tester(? Remember, I graduated from Gary Larson's school for the
mechanically declined, so this may not be quite right<g>) and it
seemed fine. Somehow, in the next couple of weeks, something
happened to the cable, and it started to electrify the tank. Of
course the voltage was stepped way down with a transformer, so
Ididn't electrocute myself, (besides, it's not April 1 yet;-) but
I had some _very_ unhappy fish until I figured out what had
happened.
A couple of the fish started acting _extremely_ jumpy, and I went
to check the pH, thinking, perhaps, that something was wrong with
the CO2 system. (I know, probably stupid, but I told you I'm not
very mechanically inclined) When I went to fill the test tube
with water, a cut on my finger hit the water, and YEOW! I
couldn't feel it with my other fingers at all. I ended up losing
my female Krib the next day, but all the other fish have returned
to normal.
So the tank is again without substrate heating. (oh well, it's
done fine without it for years) after this experience, I'd say if
your gut feeling is that the wire is too fragile, don't use it.
Someone has suggested installing 2 sets of cables at the time the
tank is set up, that way if one set fails, you can hook up the
other set.
If I were to do it again, I'd place a UGF plate underneath so that
if the cables failed, I could go back to the UGF/heater system...
I _know_ that works reliably!<g> The other good thing about the
UGF/heater system is that the electrical part is easily accessible
if the need arises to replace it.
by "Schenck, Lyndle" <lschenck/dcscorp.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000
Monolith Marine Monsters has Under gravel Heat coils cheaper than you can
make them. They sell the Azoo cables that run directly on line (115 VAC).
I was apprehensive about that but the cables seem to be well made and I have
a good Ground Fault Circuit protection.
Pros: The cables are inexpensive ($60 for a 300 Watt cable).
115 VAC system permits variable heat control with X-10 dimmer
system.
Cons: 115 VAC may be a problem. They appear to be well made but use a
GFCI!!
The power cord is too short to form a drip loop so an extension cord
is needed.
A temperature controller may be required with a higher wattage
system.
Since I already have computer control of my home lights I have connected my
coils to a X-10 lamp dimmer that lets me vary the intensity automatically.
I'm still experimenting but they are initially set for 3/4 intensity at
night and 1/2 intensity during the day. They are set to OFF if the
temperature exceeds 78 degrees F.
I have made 4 DIY 12 VDC systems and the hassle, time, and money do not
always outweigh the benefits. This is another option.
The tank was just filled this weekend so I do not have any long term
observations. If anyone is interested let me know and I will post updates.
by George Booth <booth/frii.com>
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000
>Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:04:32 -0500
>From: "Schenck, Lyndle" <lschenck@dcscorp.com>
>
>Monolith Marine Monsters has Under gravel Heat coils cheaper than you can
>make them. They sell the Azoo cables that run directly on line (115 VAC).
>I was apprehensive about that but the cables seem to be well made and I have
>a good Ground Fault Circuit protection.
I wouldn't worry too much about 115v cables. People use 115v heaters
(enclosed in glass!) all the time. 115v powerheads are very popular. When
is the last time you herd of someone killed by a broken heater or powerhead?
George Booth in Ft. Collins, Colorado (booth@frii.com)
"The web site for Aquatic Gardeners by Aquatic Gardeners"
http://www.frii.com/~booth/AquaticConcepts/
by "S. Hieber" <shieber/yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001
"Natural Aquariums" <naturalaquariums@starpower.net> asked:
". . . does anyone have any experience with the M3
> substrate
> heating cables? They seem very reasonably priced. They also have a
> either
> an analog or LCD heat controller. Has anyone used these? Which, do
> they
> prefer? I am a high tech gadget guy who is looking for low
> maintenance.
Some humble opinons:
The cables are indeed reasonably priced -- jsut keep looking around!
The insulation is thinner than that found on some other much more
expensive cables and includes no ground wire, unlike the FishVet brand
sold by, for example Pet Warehouse ("Pet" with no "s" meaning not
suing). But lack of ground wire should not be an issue provided that
you connect the cables through a GFCI and have a grounding probe in
your tank -- both are very good ideas in any event! I have used a set
Ed's M3 cables for almost 2 years without undesireable results. The
substrate reaches a maximum temperature next to the cables of about 90
degrees F after running all night -- I was afraid it might be much
higher than that. They run cool enough not to melt the epoxy coating
on, for example, TopFin and other similar packaged gravels -- if that's
what you have. In terms of wattage per foot, these are more like Dupla
(higher watts/ft.) than the Dennerle (low watts/ft.) So they are
likely to cycle on and off in most tanks, given the heat from the
lights, etc. Some prefer the cycling and actually use higher wattage
cables with timers to prevent the substrate from becoming evenly heated
and thereby not producing the desired convection currents -- but
that's another story -- see prior postings by George Booth on this
topic.
The digital controller is used by many manufcturers of heating and
chilling equipment of various kinds -- not just in the hobbyist aquatic
market but also in the industrial and farm markets -- need to keep
those chickens and dairy cows warm in the winter and cool in the
summer. :-) The controller is a standard in several industries and
very reliable -- but I think it's maker recommends that the spread
between trigger-on and trigger-off be at least two degrees, which some
might think is high -- but you can set it to less. Ed sells it for a
very good price -- I haven't seen it for less but I have seen it for
much more.
I am not familiar with the analogue unit at M3 but I recall i0t being
an Azoo, the same as the cables as probably as good and reliable as the
Otto (see below).
A cheaper but usable alternative is the Ultralife Reef Products digital
heat controller. I have found these to be reliable also, although less
versatile than M3 -- they are for heat control only. I use them with
glass tube heaters so that the water temperature is controlled by a
thermostat separated from the heater coils. If all you want to do is
control a heater, it's a pretty good controller. Even cheaper but
practical is the Otto analgue heat controller. Again, a reliable
product but you set the temp with an analogue dial instead of a digital
readout, so it takes a little longer until the setting is just where
you want it. With the digital models the display shows just what
temperatrue you have set the controller to and what the tank temp is.
The analogue dials have to be checked against a thermometer until you
get the setting jsut right.
You can get Ultralife and Otto equipment at
http://www.aquariuminstruments.com/shop/enter.html
and probably other places.
Good Luck,
Scott H.
by "James Purchase" <jpurch/interlog.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000
Lyndle asked about the cable heaters sold by M3 and Pet Warehouse.
M3 sells substrate heaters by AZOO. They operate off of mains voltage and
Edward makes it very clear that they should be plugged into a circuit which
has GFI protection (he even sells a GFI unit). I bought one of the systems +
controllers from him in the spring and haven't been electrocuted yet! As
usual, I received excellent advice and service from Edward when I was trying
to decide what I should buy and I'm more than happy with the unit that he
sold me.
Now, that being said.......summertime in an non-air-conditioned apartment is
not the correct time of year to assess how useful a substrate heater is.
Mine has rarely even switched itself on yet, but as the room temperature
drops below 80F with the approach of autumn, I expect that to change.
The cable itself was well made and came with enough holdfasts to keep it
buried securely (they are almost identical to the holdfasts from Dupla), and
the controller I got thru Edward was an Aqua Logic model which is widely
used among marine hobbyists.
I did look at the system sold by Pet Warehouse, and corresponded with them
about it. They are from Aquarium Landscapes (Fish Vet) and they are
grounded, while the AZOO models aren't, if safety is something you are
worried about. Shawn Prescott from Aquarium Landscapes is on the APD and I'm
sure that he could give you more info regarding them.
Good luck,
James Purchase
Toronto
The Krib
Plants
Plants