CO2 from Fermentation
Contents:
- CO2 the CHEAP WAY
by silverst-at-armstrong.ecn.purdue.edu (Brian R Silverstein) (Sat, 28 Aug 1993)
- [DIY Q] Combine Silverstein's CO2 w/Bishop's Controller?
by Nick.Plummer-at-med.umich.edu (Nicholas Plummer) (22 May 1994)
- [F, DIY, REPORT, LONG, PRELIM] CO2 generation w/yeast
by dputzolu-at-sal.cs.uiuc.edu (David Putzolu) (20 Jun 94)
- CO2 generator (brewing?)
by narten-at-cs.duke.edu (Thomas Narten) (08 Jan 1995)
- CO2 generator (brewing?)
by cb77-at-namaste.cc.columbia.edu (Craig Bingman) (27 Jan 1995)
- CO2 generator (brewing?)
by browen-at-aoc.nrao.edu (Bruce Rowen) (25 Jan 1995)
- [F][P] Brown Sugar vs. White Sugar in DIY CO2 bubblers
by mengerin-at-cs.utexas.edu (Matthew William Mengerink) (15 Feb 1995)
- Yeast CO2 problems, average plant growth
by "David W. Webb" <dwebb-at-ti.com> (12 Apr 1995)
- Aquatic Plants Digest V1 #76
by WORKINGSW-at-aol.com (Thu, 18 May 1995)
- Aquatic Plants Digest V1 #187
by Grant.Gussie-at-phys.utas.edu.au (Grant Gussie) (Tue, 18 Jul 1995)
- rambling DIY CO2 notes, with reactor plans (long)
by Matt Rhoten <mrhoten-at-oz.net> (Mon, 06 Nov 1995)
- White fuzzy stuff on yeast CO2 outlets revealed
by Kevin Conlin <kcconlin-at-zola.cae.ca> (Tue, 03 Oct 1995)
- DIY CO2 waste
by "Thomas Narten" <narten-at-VNET.IBM.COM> (Fri, 16 Feb 1996)
- DIY-CO2 cider, was: can I drink...
by gseven-at-lacerta.unm.edu (Roy "Gary Seven" Corey) (14 Apr 1994)
- Re:DIY CO2 nutrients
by krombhol-at-felix.teclink.net (Paul Krombholz) (Sat, 1 Mar 1997)
- Yeast in DIY CO2
by "M. Pearlscott" <pearlsco/u.washington.edu> (Fri, 14 Feb 1997)
- Re:Sugar source in DIY CO2 reactor
by krombhol/felix.teclink.net (Paul Krombholz) (Thu, 13 Feb 1997)
- DIY CO2 -- yeast
by David Gauthier <gauthie9/pilot.msu.edu> (Sun, 15 Jun 1997)
- New ingredient in DIY CO2
by Alan Silver <alan/consultancy-services.ferret.com> (Wed, 24 Dec 1997)
- CO2 bubbly thing?
by "Ken Guin" <kenguin/erols.com> (Mon, 9 Feb 1998)
- CO2 bubbly thing? (yeast facts
by kevino/qqf.com (Kevin Osborn) (Wed, 11 Feb 1998)
- Yeast CO2 Stopped
by Jim Spencer <jimsp/yahoo.com> (Thu, 19 Feb 1998)
- Heartburn in your yeast bottle
by krombhol/teclink.net (Paul Krombholz) (Thu, 23 Apr 1998)
- RE: DIY reactor
by Tom Barr <tcbiii/pacbell.net> (Wed, 26 May 1999)
- Champange Yeast-not
by Tom Barr <tcbiii/pacbell.net> (Sat, 29 May 1999)
- Yeast CO2 Reactors
by William Cwirla <wcwirla/earthlink.net> (Sun, 30 May 1999)
- Apartment to Cold
by George Slusarczuk <yurko/warwick.net> (Thu, 30 Sep 1999)
- CO2 Questions
by Mike Charlton <mike/rook.dyndns.org> (Sun, 23 Jan 2000)
- DIY CO2 bubble size
by "Wayne Jones" <waj/mnsi.net> (Mon, 20 Mar 2000)
- Aquatic Plants Digest V4 #247
by "II, Thomas Barr" <tcbiii/earthlink.net> (Wed, 26 Apr 2000)
- RE:CO2 controller & DIY yeast
by "Thomas Barr" <tcbiii/earthlink.net> (Sat, 27 May 2000)
- Never-ending High output CO2 generation via DIY yeast fermentation
by Deepsea21/aol.com (Sun, 10 Dec 2000)
- Exploding diy Co2 containers
by Travis & Vivian Morris <tdmorris/htcomp.net> (Sun, 30 Dec 2001)
- DIY C02 recipes (Tom)
by "John Pflum, Jr." <jpflumjr/pkgconsult.com> (Mon, 11 Dec 2000)
- DIY CO2 recipe
by "Cathy Hartland" <hartland/nfis.com> (Sun, 10 Dec 2000)
by silverst-at-armstrong.ecn.purdue.edu (Brian R Silverstein)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1993
I finally started putting CO2 into my tank, and the plants are
taking off. Thanks to all those who gave me advice, especially
Ulli and George.
This posting describes my CO2 injection system and has 4 parts:
COST, BACKGROUND, METHOD, and RESULTS
COST:
Total cost of equipment and maintenance for 3 weeks of CO2:
--$0.00---
Ok, that's not strictly true, but it got your attention, right?
Everything I used was stuff I already had, and so do most people.
I didn't have to BUY anything, but I did use up some things.
So, to be fair, let me estimate the MAXIMUM startup cost if you
didn't have any of this, but want to do what I did (and had to
buy it all, new).
empty 2-liter plastic Pepsi bottle $1.39 with Pepsi
6 feet of 1/4-inch air tubing $1.00 for 10 feet
large nail $1.00 for 1 lb. box
1 tubing connector $1.00 with package of 6
disposable airstones
5 cups flour (approx 2/3 kg) $1.19 for 5 lbs.
1 tsp (~10 ml)bakers yeast $ .79 for 3 1-tsp packets
funnel $1.00
water --can I even count this?
WORST CASE MAXIMUM TOTAL $7.37
BACKGROUND:
My tank is a 135-gallon tank with assorted tetras, some kribs,
and a few guppies. The lighting is 2 40-watt GTE grow-lights
and 2 30-watt cool whites. Filtration by 1 200 GPH power filter
and 1 1000lph powerhead with pre-filter which is branched to
pump to all 3 filter plates of the UGF.
Sourdough bread, San Francisco style, requires fermented flour.
In order to do this, one normally mixes equal parts (typically
1-2 cups) of flour and water, with 1 teaspoon of yeast, and let
them sit in a warm place for at least a week, stirring once a day.
Every week or so, one must either use the mixture or "feed" the
yeast, by replacing a portion with fresh flour and water. This
mixture is referred to as "sourdough starter."
METHOD:
My method of CO2 production is using the CO2 from the fermentation
of "sourdough starter" to put into my fishtank for the plants.
First, the recipe is varied slightly: I'm using a 2:1 mixture of
water:flour, so I can pour it more easily. I started with about
2 cups of flour and 4 of water (approx 1 liter of water and .5 l
of flour) in the 2l bottle, but less would have been better, as
one can get a lot of foaming of the mixture. I punched a hole
into the plastic top, and connected one end of the tubing to the
bottle, and the other goes into the inlet of the reverse-flow
powerhead running my UGF. Tight fit is pretty important at the
ends, so the small amounts of CO2 produced don't get away. I had
to try 3 bottlecaps before I was happy. Every week I use half of
the mixture for bread, and replace it. (If you don't bake bread,
of course you could dump it.) I stir the mixture by shaking the
bottle once a day.
RESULTS:
After each replacement of new flour, I get about 2-4 bubbles per
minute, which hit the impeller and practically disappear, as
they are broken into tiny ones. Those that do not disappear either
stay floating half-way down the lift-tube, where they later disappear,
or ge forced under the UGF plates. These bubble out periodically,
through the gravel. Later in the week, the flow rate is about 1
bubble per 2-3 minutes. When I stir the mixture by shaking the
bottle, it forces more gas into the tank immediately, and picks
up the production rate for a few minutes, too.
I have had this set-up running for 3 weeks. The following
effects on the plants have been observed in this time:
Java moss: was growing slowly, doubling every 3 months. Has
almost doubled. I estimate a 4-week doubling rate. It is a
darker green... it's almost black.
Hornwort: was growing slowly, getting very stringy and long-
stemmed. Now much thicker, and is almost 4 times as plentiful.
I estimate a 2 week doubling rate.
Amazon swords: were gradually dying, with very pale leaves.
Now doing better. Each plant has several leaves which bubble
little tiny bubbles (presumable oxygen) in steady streams, about
3-5 per second. I've never had this before, and I assume it is
a good sign. (Comments, anyone?) The color is much darker.
A few new leaves are being put out.
Algae: This was never a problem, before. I'm cleaning the
glass once a week, now, and the pre-filter for the UGF turns
green within 3 days of cleaning. The gravel has a green carpet.
I'm assuming that if I keep removing algae and doing partial
water changes, this will go away. I'm thinking of cutting
the light from 14 hours to 10 for a while. If not, I need to get an
otocinclus or something. (I don't want to start the usual
algae-control discussion, again)
Well, I'm happy with it, and thought I'd share my results.
It's cheap, and it works pretty well. I warn you, it does
require regular fiddling, and the uncertain CO2 injection rate
may not be suitable for people with very soft water. Mine
is very hard, so I don't bother checking the pH very often, and
it hasn't seemed to change at all.
I hope someone finds this useful.
Brian Silverstein
by Nick.Plummer-at-med.umich.edu (Nicholas Plummer)
Date: 22 May 1994
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria
In article <2ro2it$ed5-at-vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, dputzolu-at-uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
(David M. Putzolu) wrote:
>
> What I am wondering is in it would be possible to combine
> Gary Bishop's CO2 controller with Brian Silverstein's CO2 generator?
> Would a solenoid word with regular airline tubing which contained
> CO2 from Brian's generator?
>
> The main problem I can see is CO2 buildup in the generator
> part of the system might not be significant enough, or might
> kill the yeast when the solenoid valve is shut.
Well, if CO2 buildup in the reactor would be a problem why not rig up the
solenoid in a sort of reverse mode. That is, have the solenoid closed when
pH levels are o.k. If the pH drops too low, have the solenoid open and
release CO2 through a separate tube directly into the atmosphere. Since
the yeast produce CO2 constantly as long as they have food, loss of gas
into the air wouldn't present a problem. When the pH returns to the right
level, the solenoid could close so that CO2 is injected into the aquarium.
This is kind of complicated, though. If you're going to invest in a
solenoid and build a controller, you might as well go whole hog and buy a
gas tank and regulator, too.
In my aquarium with yeast fermenter, the worst pH drops occur at night when
the plants aren't photosynthesizing. To counter this, I have an airpump on
a timer that switches on when the lights switch off. The pH doesn't stay
completely stable, but it remains steady enough for the p[lants to grow,
the kribs to spawn, and the other fish remain healthy.
Nick
nick.plummer-at-med.umich.edu
by dputzolu-at-sal.cs.uiuc.edu (David Putzolu)
Date: 20 Jun 94
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria,alt.aquaria
Detailed enough subject line for ya? ;) Anyway, what follows is
a longish report of my recent experiences with using DIY CO2, a la
yeast, water, sugar, and a two liter bottle (Silverstein's method).
I hope that some people considering using such a system in their
own tank will benefit from this article, because I could have
spent the time writing this for fishwatching instead! :)
In the last few weeks, I've been experimenting with DIY CO2 generation.
My goal in using CO2 is twofold: aid plant growth and reduce pH.
I used a DIY method because it is more fun and less cash - exactly what
the doctor ordered for a grad student like me. Plus I get to fiddle
with things, which is half the fun, IMHO.
My first goal, aiding plant grown, has been at least partially achieved.
The grown of an aponogeton in my tank is measured in inches per _day_.
The vallisneria in the tank look healthy and have put a few new shoots
forth as well. For a DIY system, it has done a great job.
My second goal hasn't been met so well. While the addition of CO2
did indeed lower pH, it didn't do it reliably nor controllably, at least
at first. I experimented with various CO2 delivery/injection systems,
the results of which are detailed below.
The first one was simple - just cut off the top of a 3 (yes, three,
they sell them here) liter soda bottle to form a hemisphere. Put some
airline tubing through it, weigh it down, and just leave it in the
tank. This had the effect of going "blurp" now and then, once the dome
had enough gas in it to tip and let it bubbble to the surface. While
amusing, it had several faults. First, the "blurp" would come out
as a fairly large bubble, splashing a fair bit of water above the tank.
Second, having the top part of a soda bottle on the bottom of a tank
isn't exactly aesthetic. Finally, it was hard to tell when the CO2
generation had slowed (as the absence of a periodic "blurp" is hard
to watch for). This caused occasional undesireable swings in pH (due
to reduced CO2 output once the yeast had consumed all the sugar in
the generator).
My next attempt wasn't all that much better - I just put the output
of the CO2 generator into the intake of the cannister filter. This
fixed the "blurp" problem, ie, no splashes of water at the surface.
It was also a more efficient way of dissolving the CO2, imho, as it
didn't let large quantities of it bubble up to the surface periodically.
I was also pleased to remove the ugly soda bottle top from my tank
as well, and no doubt the fish thought better of me for it too ;)
The problem of not noticing when CO2 output was reduced was still
present, however, and even exacerbated. There was no way of telling
when the yeast had consumed all of the sugar, so I just had to
check pH every day and assume a rise in pH meant that I had to change
the yeast/sugar/water.
I considered using a DIY regulator of some sort. This would solve
the problem of getting precise amounts of CO2 into the tank, but I
would still be left with a problem of detecting when the generator
was low. So I haven't pursued this yet.
My most recent idea has been to use Tetra's CO2 "bells" in my
system. These are little cylinders with suction cups that you connect
your CO2 generator airline to. The CO2 gets trapped inside them
and has nowhere to go except dissolve into the water. Using these
"bells" had immediate benefits. First, they are clear and mounted
inside the tank. If CO2 generation slows, then the "bells" will
not be completely full - an obvious visual clue. They are fairly nice
looking (for a funny piece of plastic) and mount at the side of the
tank right next to all the other crap I have there (heater, temp sensor,
uplift tube, surface extractor). No significant aesthetic impact, at
least compared to having an ugly soda bottle top sitting at the bottom.
These "bells" also may solve a second problem. I believe that by
varying the number of bells and their depth, I can control total
CO2 being dissolved into the water. Ie, a single bell, near the
surface, would probably just let most of the CO2 bubble out and
leave the tank. OTOH, three bells placed near the bottom should
dissolve much more CO2 in the system, due to increased surface
area for dissolution as well as increased water pressure on the
trapped gas. Note, however, that this is _speculation_ and should
be taken as such. I haven't made actual measurements yet, as I
don't have a CO2 test kit.
I think the next step would be to combine this with a DIY electrical
pH measurement system. With such a system, it would be possible to
put some sort of _really_ obvious visual indicator (like a light bulb)
on the system for when CO2 generation fails, causing an increased pH.
It would also be possible to use such a system to handle pH
increases _not_ due to CO2 generation failing, by adding a solenoid
that would allow generated CO2 into additional "bells" if pH rose too
high.
So, in summary, using Tetra's CO2 "bells" has several advantages.
Not as ugly as a soda bottle top. Clear indicator when CO2 generation
has begun to slow. Hypothesized controllability of amount of CO2
being dissolved into the water. With some improvements, this could
probably be made into a system every bit as reliable as conventional
tank-driven CO2 systems, at a fraction of the cost.
+ David M. Putzolu - dputzolu-at-cs.uiuc.edu - My opinions only +
+ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ finger for pgp2.6 public key +
+ "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest +
+ reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as +
+ a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. +
+ - Thomas Jefferson, proposed Virginia constitution, June 1776. +
+ 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C. J. Boyd, Ed., 1950) +
by narten-at-cs.duke.edu (Thomas Narten)
Date: 08 Jan 1995
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria
In article <Pine.A32.3.91c.40806E-100000-at-homer10.u.washington.edu>,
Tor Linbo <hapynewt-at-u.washington.edu> wrote:
>> ...
>> [ DIY 2-liter soda bottle CO2 system details ]
>
> I know it may make life more complicated but, why not get a bigger
> container, read a book or 2, toss in some fruit, and get some wine out
> with your CO2.....O.K. I have to many hobbies.
>Um, I dunno. I put 5 gallons of water, hops, and barley malt
>into fermentation a few times a year. The results don't make
>me sick, furthermore mattk, shine, and quite a few others tend
>to visit to help me empty the carboy.
>
>Of course, I haven't hooked it up to my fishtank yet, but I plan to try
>that, in the due course of things, not having gobs of free time at the
>present.
>-----
>jj-at-alice.att.com Member HASA - Atheist Scum Division
----------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I tried just such an experiment. I does work, even with the
bread yeast you can drink the product (though it won't taste very pleasant)
My setup was, a 2 liter bottle filled with apple juice (leaving about 2.5
to 4 inches space at the top for foam) and champagne yeast. If you want to be
carefull (like all good brewers) you should wash out the bottle and sterilize
it first. Don't use soap, you'll never get it all out. Don't use bleach if
it's plastic though, it'll disolve. There is a sterilizing powder you can
get at breweries if you want or use boiling water.
Next add the fermentables. I used apple juice because I wanted some
flavor, not just sugar water alchohol. I used a normal concentration of
apple juice and it came out VERY dry. I've talked to other non-aquarium
brewers and this is common with champagne yeast, all the fermentables get
used up. Recomendations are for double strength (or 1.5 strength) apple
juice, just use frozen concentrate, or add honey or something to the mixture.
Now comes the yeast, if the juice (sugar water, whatever) is about 70
degrees F you'll be fine. Too hot will kill the yeast and too cold it'll
just take longer to activate the yeast. There will be a head of foam on the
top the next day or so. I wouldn't let it go into the tank if I were you,
though my girlfreind did (she tried it when she saw my plants double in size)
and nothing bad happened in her tank. If you have left some space at the top
you should be fine.
The other DIY-CO2 posts have the hookups under control, I let mine go
through the power head. My only problem is that the plants very near the
power head drarf those in the reast of the tank (though all grow better).
Incidently, special thanks to Thomas Narten who posted his methods for
DIY-CO2 and got me started.
Anyway, in a couple of weeks it slows or stops producing CO2. You can
take it off the aquarium (put the next batch on?) and get it ready to drink.
You may want to top the container off (still leaving an inch at the top)
so that: 1. The cider will carbonate. If all the fermentables really
were exuasted then it won't produce CO2 and carbonate. DON'T think that
more is better and try to overcarbonate. That can be messy. Enough
apple juice to raise the level to near the top is all you should need.
2. when it does carbonate if there is too much air space at the top it will
just pressurize and not mix the hold the CO2 in soloution (technical term
there might be used wrong)
Last: wait a while. Don't worry about letting it age, it's not fine
wine or anything. The wait is to let it carbonate enough to drink. It
doesn't have to do this but it's better (to me) carbonated. I waited
about two or three weeks I think. (And I won't even open beer that hasn't
been in the bottle for at least a month.
I don't know if I will try hooking a beer brew to the aquarium, I am still
a bit worried about other gases coming through (will my fish smell like hops?)
Happy brewing/fishing.
----
Live from unm.edu
Roy "gseven" Corey
"Communication is the staple of an advanced society"
--
narten-at-cs.duke.edu
by cb77-at-namaste.cc.columbia.edu (Craig Bingman)
Date: 27 Jan 1995
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria
In article <NARTEN.95Jan22084646-at-tmp144.cs.duke.edu>,
Thomas Narten <narten-at-cs.duke.edu> wrote:
>In article <3fq4hd$43s-at-newsbf02.news.aol.com> crypdude-at-aol.com (Cryp Dude) writes:
>
>> If so...does anyone else get the thick (1/8") film of gelatin on the
>> entire outside of the wood-air diffuser after only a few days of use? If
>> so, what is it?
>
>Lot's of people have reported getting this film on their CO2 airstone.
>It seems harmless. I'm still waiting to hear of a reasonable
>explanation for what it is though. For example, do folks who use CO2
>tanks ever get anything similar, or is this specific to yeast-produced
>CO2?
CO2 is not the only product of yeast fermentation. You probably have some
idea of what pure CO2 smells like, the material coming out of your
fermenter will smell substantially different, because of low molecular
weight volatile organics in the output. I strongly suspect that bacteria
use them as a carbon source and the gelatenous slime you are seeing over
the end of the airstone is just bacteria.
Craig
by browen-at-aoc.nrao.edu (Bruce Rowen)
Date: 25 Jan 1995
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria
>> In article <9501231817.AA16657-at-cod.nosc.mil> nguyenh-at-nosc.mil (Hoa G. Nguyen) writes:
>
>> > What could happened is what happened to me last week. ;-) I left the
>> > bottle off for a few hours, and capillary action in the small air hose
>> > just started siphoning the water out. I had 20 gallons of water on my
>> > living room floor in a few hours. I now have a $3.75 one-way valve in
>> > the line. It didn't affect the CO2 injection rate any (that I can see).
>> > I strongly recommend having one.
>
>> What key detail have you omitted from this story? I removed the
>> warning about this possibility from my writeup after concluding it
>> couldn't happen in practice.
>
I'll post my interesting experience with a yeast CO2 system:
I made mine out of a screw-top plastic gallon jug for my 140. The jug sat
on the floor with approx. 3/4 gallons of sugarwater/yeast and a standard
airline running up to the tank (total head of about 3 feet). The thing
works great, I use four cups sugar to 3/4 gallon water and a tiny pinch
of yeast. I get a bubble every 15 seconds for the past two months without
and attention (I think the small amount of initial yeast keeps CO2 production
and food consumption down). Anyway, it seems I have some micro-ants that
live in my apartment and they found the jug (Mmmmmm sugar!). The little
buggers ate a tiny hole into the jug and overnight I lost about 30 gallons
(a nice focused stream of water onto my carpet!). I since moved the jug
above the level of the aquarium and will replace it with a glass jug.
Murphy LIVES!!!!
---
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Rowen National Radio Astronomy Observatory
Scientific Programmer Array Operations Center
browen-at-aoc.nrao.edu P.O. Box O Socorro, NM 87801
(505)385-7329 (505)385-7000
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
by mengerin-at-cs.utexas.edu (Matthew William Mengerink)
Date: 15 Feb 1995
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria,alt.aquaria
Hello,
I've done a little experiment w/ using white sugar vs. brown sugar
in my CO2 bubbler. Here is the recipe for each:
In a three liter bottle add
1.5-2 liters of water which has been dechlorinated
1 tsp of Fleishman's Yeast.
1/2 sugar
Though this was not super scientific, here were my results...
White sugar had great bubble action for the first 2-3 days which then faded
off to a regular spurt every 1-5 seconds for the next 3-4. Then it petered
away to a spurt at irregular long intervals
Brown sugar had fantastic, regular bubble action for 3-4 days then *poop*
it went to about zilch.
As I have said, this is not super scientific. I've used the white for a
while and when I ran out I used the brown as a substitue. Since then, I've
used the brown once more. However, I think that I'm going to try to use
it more w/ more frequent changes due to the regularity that I'm observing.
I'd like it if those of you who regularly use white could sub in the same
amount of brown sugar to see if you get similar results.
Thanks,
Matthew
---------------------------- "Fish weird me out!" -----------------------------
by "David W. Webb" <dwebb-at-ti.com>
Date: 12 Apr 1995
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria
jgtst5+-at-pitt.edu (Justin G Tolmer) wrote:
>
> >
> >I use 1 1/2 cups of sugar, 1 tsp yeast, and 1 tsp baking soda. The
> >bottles are filled to within 3" of the top. I get bubbling for about
> >10 days at a rate of about 1 bubble every 10-15 seconds per 2-liter
> >
> This is the first I've heard about using baking soda. I must have missed
> that somewhere. Why do you add it?
>
I got the idea from articles in the archives and from the Dupla book's
section on CO2 injection. They basically indicate that carbonate
hardness is a good buffer against pH crashes. I figure that my yeast
probably will do better in a semi-neutral pH (or at least a pH greater
than 3.0). I haven't done any calculations to determine how much
baking soda is best, but my generators seem to go longer with the
baking soda than they do without.
---------------------------------------------------------
David W. Webb
dwebb-at-ti.com
Any correlation between my opinions and those of Texas
Instruments is purely coincidental. (I don't speak for
TI)
---------------------------------------------------------
by WORKINGSW-at-aol.com
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995
<<From: Ghazanfar Khan Ghori <ghori-at-Glue.umd.edu>
Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 23:13:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Controling DIY CO2 Generators
I dont know if anybody has experianced this b4 [...] I also discovered that
the more heat I direct towards the bottle the more CO2 it produced. [...] I
wonder if I can place a small heater
inside a thermos containing the yeats/sugar mixture and control
the amonut of CO2 produced...whaddya think?
Mebbe I shold patent this! ;)>>
You can also put the CO2 generator in a bucket of water that has a heater in
it (less messy for the heater) or you can use no heater & a different yeast
(bottom-fermenting lager yeast goes along at a lovely clip in our 65 degree
house, lasts 3+weeks).
Problems with running a heated CO2 generator: first, your CO2 brew will tend
to spend itself right quick - this may increase the likelihood of pH swings
'cos of not noticing that it has already killed itself; second, in the event
that your heater quits (power goes out, whatever) the cooling CO2 generator
will start sucking water & IF something in the chain fails (every check-valve
I've ever tried in a CO2 line gets fried), you could end up with your
fishtank dry & your carpet wet (unless you can put your rig above your tank).
Not to torpedo your idea (which surely could be great in the right
circumstances) - but to share experience!
AHS
by Grant.Gussie-at-phys.utas.edu.au (Grant Gussie)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995
>3) Is it true that if I reduce the amount of yeast in my next mixture,
>would it last longer but with less bubble rate? Is there a catch to
>this?
>
Not really. The yeast will multiply fairly rapidly and reach their
equilibrium concentration in a day or two regardless of their initial
concentration (exponential growth and all that). What I do is almost NEVER
make a NEW mixture. I stir the mixture well to suspend the dead yest cells
and then just drain out 3/4 of the old liquid and add fresh water (straight
from the tap) and sugar. The yeast left over in the liquid starts to
multiply again and I'm back in full production by the end of the day (saves
money in yeast that way). But every couple of months I start from scratch
just to be sure thhe bacterial levels aren't getting to ridiculous.
internet email: Grant.Gussie-at-phys.utas.edu.au
www page: http://reber.phys.utas.edu.au/~gussie/
by Matt Rhoten <mrhoten-at-oz.net>
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 1995
I recently put together a yeast CO2 system based on Thomas Narten's
great article. (See the article here.)
There are a few details I noticed which I thought people might find
useful. I also ended up building a CO2 reactor, which design is
detailed here. I will assume the reader has read Narten's article, so
I won't explain the whole process.
A few tips about getting the CO2 out of the 2-liter bottle and into
airline tubing: #3 or #4 stoppers both fit 2-liter bottles. If your
stopper has no hole, you can drill a hole in the stopper yourself if
you hold it with pliers to make it more rigid. Copper tubing can be
cut by wire cutters and/or a file; you use the cutters to score around
the outside of the tubing before snapping it. This takes a steady
hand, but it works, and it doesn't require you have a tubing/pipe
cutter on hand, which I don't. Stoppers are around $.50, and copper
tubing is around $.70/ft, at the store I went, so this is not an
expensive thing to set up.
Setting up the stopper - and remembering to buy yeast at the grocery -
were the hardest parts of getting the injector set up. This method is
very easy to get going!
I also put a check valve in the airline tubing; based on various
postings I'm not sure if it would prevent a catastrophic siphon, but
who knows, it might, and it was only a buck. I waited a few hours
after assembling the yeast/sugar mixture before hooking up the tubing
anyway. (I might move the 2-liter to a shelf at water level anyway.)
Nicholas Plummer reports in Narten's article that users of Hagen
Fluval 203 filters can experience the impeller rattling if they use
the filter to shred CO2 bubbles. I can confirm this, at least with my
Fluval 303 (loaded with, in order, ceramic rings, empty, foam). This
woke me up at around 3am one morning. It's easily remediable by the
usual "fiddle with the valves on the intake/outflow lines until it
goes away" remedy Fluval owners are used to. (These filters make a lot
of noise if enough gas gets trapped in the impeller chamber. I'm
thinking of chucking it and getting an Eheim.)
So what better time than 3am to make a CO2 reactor? I made one from
what was on hand. Following is a description of the reactor, which is
fairly simple, as it does not use a pump to push water and CO2 past
each other. The materials:
- - 1.5L bottle from Volvic Lemon-Lime Water. Yummy stuff, around $1.50,
bottle is transparent and label is easily removed.
- - Plastic cable ties. $3 for a whole bunch of these.
- - Around a quart of bio-balls, bought a few months ago for this
eventuality. These are expensive: I think I paid $15/gallon or
so. Aquarists on a shoestring can use some other medium; I've seen
filter floss and marbles both suggested.
- - Airline tubing and an airstone
The Volvic bottle is a rounded square as seen from the top. I cut the
top off the bottle, drilled various holes in it, and filled it most of
the way full with bio-balls. I then cut small slits in the sides with
a sharp knife and ran cable ties through these slits, connecting the
ties to each other in a rectanglular loop. As viewed from the top or
bottom:
/--------\ /--------\
/ \ / \
| | | | |
| | O-+----------+-\
| | -> | | | |
| | | | | |
| | \-+----------+-O
| | | | |
\ / \ /
\--------/ \--------/
These cable ties are placed so they will hold the bio-balls in place,
making it possible to handle the reactor without the bio-balls falling
out. As viewed from the side, the apparatus looks like this:
v-- holes in top to allow undissolved CO2 to escape
/ ------ \
/ O O O O \
| O O O O |
O O O O <- holes in sides to allow water admixture
| O O O O | (these are important since there is no pumping
O O O O action to mix the CO2-enriched water with the
| bioballs | aquarium water)
O O O O
| O O O O |
O O O O
| O O O O |
| O O O O |
| O O O O |
| O O O O |
+----------+ <- cable ties holding in the guts
| |
| (===)----- <- airline tubing through hole to airstone
| |
| |
| |
The bottle holds roughly 16 of the size of bio-balls I have.
Incidentally, these are far larger than optimal; I think tiny
bio-balls (under an inch in diameter) would be more efficient at
slowing, trapping, and breaking up bubbles. Or maybe gravel.
The "spare" length of bottle on the bottom allows for implantation in
the gravel, to prevent the reactor from going adrift. I found the
bio-balls to be slightly buoyant, which surprised me, and I figured
any air or CO2 trapped in them could only make things worse.
Next time I'm going to try using a hole punch and/or a pocketknife
and/or a soldering iron instead of a power drill for making holes in
the plastic, as drilling thin plastic generates really ragged holes.
The decision to use cable ties seems to have been a good one. They're
so cheap as to be nearly free, they hold securely, they're easily
removed/replaced for cleaning, and they're strong - stronger than the
plastic of which the bottle is made. I thought about putting the top
of the bottle inside the apparatus to hold everything in place -
imagine cutting the top off the bottle, inverting the top, and
sticking it back on/in the bottle. But I decided this would be a waste
of space inside the reactor, as there would be odd shaped spaces where
bio-balls would not fit. So depending on your choice of reactor media
this might be useful.
Right now I don't have the airstone fixed to anything in the reactor.
I decided to leave it this way for ease of maintenance. There's not a
lot of room for it to wander around anyway; it rests on the gravel
with the first layer of bio-balls right above it.
This reactor is not pretty. I now have a funky looking transparent
quart-sized bottle stuck in the gravel in a back corner of my
aquarium, with red bio-balls inside. It almost makes me want a sump. I
will have to replant a bit to cover it up.
Well, that's about it. The gizmo hasn't been in place long enough for
me to report on its efficiency at dissolving CO2, but based on the
quantity of bubbles coming out of the top of the reactor, I wager this
efficiency is low. Time to investigate small pumps.
Based on my water values prior to the CO2 system - nearly no dissolved
carbon dioxide, pH around 7.8, KH around 40ppm raised to around 70ppm
with NaHCO3 - and on various net postings, I have high hopes for the
effects of CO2 injection in this tank. I figure with 120W of tritons
over the tank, CO2 was the next step. Indeed, after a couple of days
running, the pH has stabilized around 6.9 (6.7-6.8 in the morning),
with dissolved CO2 reading as expected around 15-20ppm.
Next step: researching iron! (I have crappy substrate.)
-matt
by Kevin Conlin <kcconlin-at-zola.cae.ca>
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 1995
I finally became curious enough to put some of the white fuzz that grows
at the outlet of my DIY yeast CO2 system under a microscope. At 600x,
very narrow unbranching filaments are seen. These filaments appear to be
chains of bacteria; they are divided into individual cells with no apparent
internal structure like so:
____________________________________
__|____|____|____|____|____|____|___
Most strands were very long, but there were many small fragments consisting of
just a few cells. Many motile and immotile bacteria were also seen. I didn't
have a reticle so I couldn't determine actual dimensions. Perhaps some
microbiologist could come up with a speculative ID for these critters.
- --
Kevin Conlin kcconlin-at-cae.ca "We're Canadians. We HAVE to be polite"
by "Thomas Narten" <narten-at-VNET.IBM.COM>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996
> >All this talk of DIY CO2 yeast systems has got me thinking - what is
> >everyone doing with the alcohol produced in the process?
>
> You know, David, I've wondered about this too. Everytime I dump one of
> those bottles out it smells like beer. Are we missing something here? Does
> this CO2 producing give us a jump start on a home brewery? :)
One of the true wonders of the net is that there is always someone out
there willing to do just about anything. From the past:
by gseven-at-lacerta.unm.edu (Roy "Gary Seven" Corey)
Date: 14 Apr 1994
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria
<stuff about BATF maniacs skipped>
>Um, I dunno. I put 5 gallons of water, hops, and barley malt
>into fermentation a few times a year. The results don't make
>me sick, furthermore mattk, shine, and quite a few others tend
>to visit to help me empty the carboy.
>
>Of course, I haven't hooked it up to my fishtank yet, but I plan to try
>that, in the due course of things, not having gobs of free time at the
>present.
>-----
>jj-at-alice.att.com Member HASA - Atheist Scum Division
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I tried just such an experiment. I does work, even with the
bread yeast you can drink the product (though it won't taste very pleasant)
My setup was, a 2 liter bottle filled with apple juice (leaving about 2.5
to 4 inches space at the top for foam) and champagne yeast. If you want to be
carefull (like all good brewers) you should wash out the bottle and sterilize
it first. Don't use soap, you'll never get it all out. Don't use bleach if
it's plastic though, it'll disolve. There is a sterilizing powder you can
get at breweries if you want or use boiling water.
Next add the fermentables. I used apple juice because I wanted some
flavor, not just sugar water alchohol. I used a normal concentration of
apple juice and it came out VERY dry. I've talked to other non-aquarium
brewers and this is common with champagne yeast, all the fermentables get
used up. Recomendations are for double strength (or 1.5 strength) apple
juice, just use frozen concentrate, or add honey or something to the mixture.
Now comes the yeast, if the juice (sugar water, whatever) is about 70
degrees F you'll be fine. Too hot will kill the yeast and too cold it'll
just take longer to activate the yeast. There will be a head of foam on the
top the next day or so. I wouldn't let it go into the tank if I were you,
though my girlfreind did (she tried it when she saw my plants double in size)
and nothing bad happened in her tank. If you have left some space at the top
you should be fine.
The other DIY-CO2 posts have the hookups under control, I let mine go
through the power head. My only problem is that the plants very near the
power head drarf those in the reast of the tank (though all grow better).
Incidently, special thanks to Thomas Narten who posted his methods for
DIY-CO2 and got me started.
Anyway, in a couple of weeks it slows or stops producing CO2. You can
take it off the aquarium (put the next batch on?) and get it ready to drink.
You may want to top the container off (still leaving an inch at the top)
so that: 1. The cider will carbonate. If all the fermentables really
were exuasted then it won't produce CO2 and carbonate. DON'T think that
more is better and try to overcarbonate. That can be messy. Enough
apple juice to raise the level to near the top is all you should need.
2. when it does carbonate if there is too much air space at the top it will
just pressurize and not mix the hold the CO2 in soloution (technical term
there might be used wrong)
Last: wait a while. Don't worry about letting it age, it's not fine
wine or anything. The wait is to let it carbonate enough to drink. It
doesn't have to do this but it's better (to me) carbonated. I waited
about two or three weeks I think. (And I won't even open beer that hasn't
been in the bottle for at least a month.
I don't know if I will try hooking a beer brew to the aquarium, I am still
a bit worried about other gases coming through (will my fish smell like hops?)
Happy brewing/fishing.
- ----
Live from unm.edu
Roy "gseven" Corey
"Communication is the staple of an advanced society"
by krombhol-at-felix.teclink.net (Paul Krombholz)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997
- -----------------------------
>
>From: Paul Nicholson <paul-at-eisusa.com>
>....When a recent sugar and water batch started to give out, I added one
>teaspoon of whole wheat flour to the depleted mix. This perked up the C02
>output immediately about ten fold. I expected this and attributed to the
>fact that the flour particulates provided bubble nucleating sites for the
>C02 already in solution. However 24 hours later the output of the generator
>is still going great, and I believe this is due to the nutrients in the
>flour allowing better yeast growth.
This is an interesting finding that could mean a lot for all who produce
CO2 by fermentation.
Another possibility is that there could be some bacteria in there with the
yeast, and that these bacteria can break down the starch in the flour to
simple sugars. The yeast could then use the sugars, and undoubtedly the
bacteria are using them also in the respiration process.
Paul Krombholz Tougaloo College, Tougaloo, MS 39174
In Jackson, Mississippi, where we have had more cold fronts and warm fronts
the last week than I can ever remember in one week. We had 6 separate
weather systems bring rain on 6 out of 7 days.
by "M. Pearlscott" <pearlsco/u.washington.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997
David,
I have experimented with different wine yeasts, and found that the extent
to which they will last longer is only a couple of days. Of course, if
you were to dilute the solution of alcohol they were in, and add more
sugar they would continue to make CO2 longer. I also tried using
different juices with the wine yeast, which gave me a about the same
results as using water with the wine yeast. The product of the wine yeast
and juice is drinkable (if you use sterilizing tabs), but doesn't compare
to *real* wine. It's more like a cooler. Moving onward...
Okay, now the reason that most people use regular table sugar is that it
is easily available, and most already have some at home. Same goes for
the bread yeast. Also, these ingredients are cheap... though I don't
remember the wine yeast being very expensive. If I remember, I actually
used less wine yeast than bread yeast per volume of liquid. Hmm...
Cheers,
Mark
- ------
pearlsco-at-u.washington.edu
The more people I meet, the more I like my plants.
by krombhol/felix.teclink.net (Paul Krombholz)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997
>Subject: Sugar source in DIY CO2 reactor
>
............<snipped>................. Some homebrewers
>will go as far as to say that you will kill the yeast if you
>just put them in plain (cane) sugar water. Now, most of you
>know this isn't true because its been used by aqua plant
>fanatics for some time. But the question still remains...
>isn't there a better way? Couldn't we use info from the
>homebrewing community to make this contraption more
>efficient so that it doesn't have to be changed as often?
..............<rest snipped>............................
Our Intro to Biology students do a laboratory exercise on respiration using
bakers yeast, with various kinds of sugar. They always get the results
that the yeast can utilize sucrose, fructose, and glucose, but not any of
the other kinds of sugar, such as lactose or galactose. Since brewers
yeast is just a different variety of baker's yeast, I am pretty sure it has
the same capabilities with respect to sugar utilization. The yeast seems
to be able to utilize all three sugars equally well as measured by the
amount of CO2 generated. Sucrose is just a disaccaride composed of
glucose and fructose, and so, really, the yeast has the enzyme to break
down sucrose to its component monosaccharides, and it can utilize both of
them.
Paul Krombholz Tougaloo College, Tougaloo, MS 39174
In soggy Jackson, Mississippi where it raind about 1.5 inches yesterday.
by David Gauthier <gauthie9/pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997
Greetings all --
I have been following the DIY CO2 thread with some interest, and
decided it was time to stop lurking. As a user of DIY CO2 and an avid
homebrewer, I have gained some insight into the behavior of yeast that
may be useful. The most important thing to understand about yeast is
its life cycle. Treating yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae for beer/wine
yeast) as a ^Óchemical^Ô and not as a microorganism leads to most problems
encountered with fermentation. The life cycle of Saccharomyces
progresses in three stages.
1) Respiration -- the first stage in the life cycle is aerobic. When
yeast is added to an unfermented nutrient broth (called wort in brewing,
or must in winemaking), it utilizes free oxygen in the solution. No
alcohol is produced in this stage, and CO2 production is low. During
respiration, yeast stores energy in various chemical forms to be used
later during reproduction and fermentation. Aerobic respiration will
generally continue until most of the dissolved oxygen is exhausted.
2) Fermentation -- this is the stage during which most CO2 is
produced. When no oxygen is available, yeast will switch to an
alternate metabolic pathway utilizing sugars for energy and producing,
primarily, CO2 and ethanol. Yeast divides rapidly in this phase,
reaching its carrying capacity (about 50 million cells/ml) in the wort
or must, and remains suspended in solution in order to expose maximum
surface area to nutrients. Assuming no oxygen is added back to the
fermenting wort, yeast will continue fermentation until one of two
things happens; either alcohol concentration will exceed tolerance, or
the yeast run out of food.
3) Sedimentation -- once conditions are no longer amicable to
fermentation, yeast will stop dividing and start storing energy in the
form of glycogen, a polysaccharide. Yeast will flocculate and fall out
of solution, creating a cake of sludge on the bottom of your
fermentation vessel. At this point, the yeast are no longer
metabolically active, and await better conditions in a state of
dormancy.
With the life cycle of yeast in mind, I have a few suggestions about how
to achieve better DIY CO2 results.
I have noticed that most CO2 setups use only table sugar as fuel for the
yeast. Yeast require sucrose as their primary source of energy, but
also require amino acids, lipids, and trace elements for proper
metabolic action. In beer brewing, this is normally not a problem, as
the malted barley used contains sugar as well as anything else the yeast
needs. However, in winemaking, which is pretty similar to adding sugar
to water, it is necessary to add extra nutrients to the must in order to
get proper fermentation. If proteins run out before the sugar does,
what you have is a ^Óstuck^Ô fermentation, in which the yeast have plenty
of fuel, but cannot process it. There are a number of ways in which you
can provide nutrients to your yeast. I use the malt extract that is
used for beer making. This is available in any homebrewing store in
either liquid or powder form. A few tablespoons added per liter of
sugar water is usually sufficient. Homebrewing shops also sell
something called ^Óyeast nutrient^Ô which works nicely. I am not sure
about the flour that others have tried, as the sugars and proteins are
locked up in complex forms (starch, polypeptides) that the yeast cannot
utilize without enzymatic degradation.
If you want to have a quick starting, long lasting fermentation, it is
necessary to provide your yeast with plenty of oxygen when they are
first added to your nutrient broth. Shake it, stir it, or put an
airstone in it, but saturate it with O2 before you put your yeast in.
Yeast are microorganisms, and microorganisms compete. So, when setting
up your fermenter, keep it clean. Rinse it out with hot water. Bleach
treat it. Whatever, just provide your yeast with a sanitary environment
in which to get started. Once the yeast is established, it will
outcompete most other bugs, but initially, bugs like Lactobacillus and
Acetobacter (both found in the air and all over your body) can inhibit
yeast reproduction. If your nutrient broth smells sour or vinegary, you
have problems with one of these bugs.
Treating your broth with bicarb is fine, but go easy. Yeast functions
best at a pH of 5-5.5.
Use beer or wine yeast. Bread yeast is OK, but poops out before beer or
wine. The primary difference is in alcohol tolerance. Beer yeast will
go up to about 5-7%/vol EtOH, and wine yeast 14-18%, depending on
strain. Bread yeast is below beer yeast in alcohol tolerance, from my
experience. If you want to superload sugar in your initial mix,
Champagne yeast will work the longest, as it has the highest alcohol
tolerance. Due to alcohol tolerance in your strain of yeast, it is
possible to put too much sugar in your initial mix. The extra won^Òt
hurt the yeast, but it won^Òt be utilized after a certain alcohol
concentration and will be wasted. If you have access to a hydrometer,
which measures specific gravity, 1.060 is a good starting point for most
beer yeasts. This can be attained with roughly one cup of table sugar
per liter of water. Oh, and if you are using beer yeast, use ale
yeast. Lager yeast (S. uvarum) ferments best at between 35 and 50
degrees and may be inhibited at room temp.
If one wishes to get yeast fermenting and producing CO2 quickly (e.g. if
your tank CO2 generater just stopped producing and your pH is going up),
starter cultures are in order. However, talking about those could be
the subject of a post in itself. If there is interest, please let me
know.
You can keep your yeast going from one addition pretty much indefinitely
by using dormant yeast to inoculate a fresh nutrient broth. Just a
small amount of the dormant, flocculated yeast is necessary to get a new
fermentation going. However, if you are doing this, you will be most
successful if you get the yeast within one week of the onset of
sedimentation. Considerable breakdown of the yeast can occur after
that. Use of a clear container for your fermentation vessel can be
helpful in determining how much time your yeast has left. Once you can
see through the solution, sedimentation is in full swing, and your CO2
production is decreasing.
Finally, I have an observation that I cannot explain, but that seems to
work. Make sure your nutrient/yeast broth comes to within one inch of
the top of your fermentation vessel. For some reason, lots of dead
airspace within the vessel seems to cause problems. I don^Òt know
whether this is due to partial pressures of CO2 affecting pH or what.
Those are the major suggestions I have for now. Hope this generates
some interest.
Regards
Dave Gauthier
gauthie9-at-pilot.msu.edu
by Alan Silver <alan/consultancy-services.ferret.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
kenboy <kenboy-at-tm.net.my> wrote ...
>But mine one still producing CO2 for bout 3 weeks(testing period). Today
>might be the 1st day for the fourth weeks. The CO2 produce are still
>releasing constantly to my with a DIY CO2 reactor.
>For this generator its on for 24 hours every day without any heat-control.
>
>My room temp are around 28-29'c
>The ingredient I was used was :
>1. 3.15l plastic bottle(instead of 2l carbonate drinks bottles)
>2. 1 cups of normal sugar
>3. 1 cup of rock sugar
>4. 1 pack of "fermipan" instant yeast(11g) made in Holland--it supposed to
>be use on my sister bakery stuffs. just found it!!
>5. 1.5l of warm water.
>
>I also can't believe it on the 1 day of third week but it working! And
>hopefully it will last longer than a month! I will update all when it is
>working fine over a month.
I can believe it. I use 2 cups of plain sugar, 1 tsp of yeast and 1.5
litres of water and it usually lasts three weeks. I'm quite prepared to
believe that the rock sugar gives you a few extra days.
This stuff about needing champagne yeast has come up a few times
recently (mostly repeated postings from the same person). As far as I
can see it's just plain wrong. Loads of people here have been using
ordianry baker's yeast for years and not seen the problems he's
claiming. When my reactor runs low, I just replace the sugar water,
taking care not to drain off the yeast that's ettled to the bottom. You
can go for ages without changing the yeast, so I find it hard to believe
that the yeast has been kiled by the alcohol.
I'd keep up with what you're doing, it sounds fine to me.
Alan
NOTE - In order to discourage unsolicited e-mail, the address in the
header may have .ferret added. Please remove this before replying.
--
Sent By : Alan Silver
It's not an optical illusion, it just looks like one
by "Ken Guin" <kenguin/erols.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
>Also, some people have mentioned that they add Baking Soda
>to the mix. What is the reason for that? Does it make it last longer?
Yeast do better in an alkaline solution.
by kevino/qqf.com (Kevin Osborn)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Just a couple of Yeast facts from my homebrewing obsession
On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:07:39 +0000, Alan Silver
<alan-at-consultancy-services.ferret.com> wrote:
>Noel Llopis <llopis-at-zonker.ecs.umass.edu> wrote ...
>>Alan,
>>
>
>>
>>I just put everything in the bottle and shake it a lot. It seems to work,
>>but it takes a day or two to get going. Maybe your order helps to
>>speed up the initial production?
Shaking puts O2 in the solution which yeast needs in order to produce
CO2.
Hydrating the yeast in warm water will help get it going (not too hot
though, it will kill the yeast)
The more O2 you get in there the faster it will get going. (More yeast
helps too).
There aren't many yeast nutrients in white sugar (Not like yummy
Malt!), so you could add some (pick them up at the homebrew store) or
use autolyzed (killed) yeast from a health food store. The live yeast
will use the dead ones for nutrients.
Yeast being a living thing likes not to be shocked, so going from the
fridge to warm water is a bad idea.
The best yeast generator, of course is a nice carboy full of
fermenting beer! Just don't throw your generating solution out!
Drink it!!!!
>
>Maybe, don't really know. The web page where I saw this recipe (don't
>know who's it was) said that it should take 24 hours to get going, but
>mine usually starts producing within the hour.
>
>>
by Jim Spencer <jimsp/yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998
Darrell wrote;
>>It seems that the never-ending question regarding yeast CO2 is why
it is not lasting very long. CO2 should last at least 3 to 4 weeks.
If it is not, you can check the following:
>
>snip
The things you list are good things to check but I think you left out
one of the most likely causes of CO2 quitting. Allowing the
temperature to drop below about 70F seems to be a good way to kill the
yeast reaction. The problem is many of us have homes where room
temperatures drop into the 60's - especially at night. The problems
with trying to keep the reactor warm without heating up the whole
house is one of the reasons I switched to a compressed gas cylinder
for my CO2 supply.
Unfortunately when people post success formulas with yeast generated
CO2 they rarely mention the temperature they keep their reactor at and
people miss the importance of keeping the reactor warm.
by krombhol/teclink.net (Paul Krombholz)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998
In the TV ads for heartburn remedies they talk about acid reflux, and that
sounds like what happens some times with yeast bottles. What gets burped
up is a mixture of yeast, sugar, alcohols, etc. that makes good food for
bacteria in the tank. The cloudiness that results is likely bacteria,
rather than yeast. Even if nothing gets burped up, alcohols are volatile
and can be carried in in the air. This probably explains the small amount
of white slime or other growth often seen near the outlet of the DIY
system.
I wonder if it would be helpful to flush the system with air periodically
so that the O2 supply gets renewed and the accumulated CO2 gets pumped into
the tank. A one minute flush when the lights come on in the morning might
be a good time to deliver CO2. It should be possible to rig some kind of
clever system so that when the pressure goes negative due to oxygen
consumption, a switch is turned on to a small air pump to flush the system
for a minute or a half minute. If the culture can be kept aerobic, the
yeast will produce a lot more CO2 than if it goes anaerobic. Under
anaerobic conditions you get two molecules of CO2 and two molecules of
ethyl alcohol from a molecule of glucose. Under aerobic contitions, you
get 6 molecules of CO2 (and nothing else except 6 molecules of water) from
a molecule of glucose.
Paul Krombholz, in cool central Mississippi, where it is going to get
warmer.
by Tom Barr <tcbiii/pacbell.net>
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999
As someone who has a nice 90 gallon tank with a DIY yeast for a CO2
source........one bottle of brew will not do it for this tank. The
powerhead reactor will work great and you can also make a hose
attachment as long as you wish to even further the efficiency of
dissolving the CO2 in the water. Simply add some hose to the output of
the powerhead and hang .....say 3-4 feet of 5/8" hose on the back of
the tank with the output going back into the tank. This will give you
more contact time and better directional control of CO2 rich water. A
spray bar along the bottom is a good approach for the return. Use 2-4
bottles of 2-3 liter brew reactors to get your PH down. Consider
softening your water some also if possible. KH is kinda high. Place the
intake of CO2 on your suction side of your pump. This will further grind
up the CO2. Be sure to use a ridged bottle !!!!!!!!!! Not a flimsy 2
liter pop bottle.
You'll be very sorry if ya don't! Noncollapsable bottles are the way to
go using yeast. A vinyl tube slipped over the suction side of the power
head can serve a manifold for 2- to however many bottles of yeast you
wish to use, with each tube connected to a separate bottle of brew.
On large tanks, many have found pressure tanks to fit the needs of plant
tanks better than yeast set ups. It can work........ but you need more
gas<g>. Rotating sets of 2 to 3 bottles every 10 days or so (or until
gas production drops of) will even out flucuations and keep thing
stable. 55 gallons and down I'll use the yeast every time but over that
it will take more than one bottle generally depending on CO2
needs/lighting.
Same goes for cat feces dosing but many cats are territorial and won't
dose another cat's tank so rotation can be a big problem in larger
tanks<g>.
Tom Barr AGA
by Tom Barr <tcbiii/pacbell.net>
Date: Sat, 29 May 1999
I have to agree with Augie's statement on this stuff. I've played with
it in varying combinations. Result: no difference except it's more $
than baker's yeast. I had hope but it didn't deliver................
Tom Barr AGA
by William Cwirla <wcwirla/earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999
I've been using champagne yeast for the last four months in three tanks (4
reactors). I have tried two types. Red Star Pasteur Champagne, and Lalvin
EC-1118 wine yeast using the following recipe:
1/2 teaspoon yeast dissolved in a small amount of warm water
1cup table sugar
approx. 60 oz of water
The Red Star clearly outperforms the Lalvin in this application. The
solutions remain active for about 3-4 weeks, only slightly better than my
experience with ordinary baker's yeast (2-3 weeks). The main difference
between champagne yeast and baker's yeast seems to be that champagne yeast
comes to full activity much more slowly. Baker's yeast is selected to give a
fast burst of activity, while wine yeast is in it for the long haul. This is
a slight advantage in our application, though I don't think it's worth the
additional cost and trouble. When I run out of champagne yeast, I plan to go
back to my trusty bottle of good old Red Star baker's yeast. My best protocol
to date remains: 1 tsp baker's yeast, 1/2 cup sugar, 60 oz water. Change
every two weeks.
William Cwirla
Hacienda Heights
by George Slusarczuk <yurko/warwick.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999
Hello Jason,
Your post made me see the subject (and Matthew's original question) in
new light. Using the ballast as a heater for yeast fermentation is OK.
Just look at what will happen:
Lights on. The ballast heats the yeast reactor, increasing CO2 output.
Lights out. The ballast stops heating, the solution slowly cools down
and the CO2 output slows down too. However, without lights the plants do
not need CO2 - they produce CO2 -- so with decreased CO2 output at
night, the pH swings will be smaller.
Morning lights on. The ballast slowly heats the yeast reactor and the
CO2 output increases -- just as the plants need that added CO2.
Of course, a heater, plugged into the lighting circuit, would do as
well. Alternatively, putting the heater on its own timer, and turning it
on with the lights, but turning it off _before_ light go out, will
further minimize pH swings and make your fish happier.
What we have here is an "automatic self-regulating CO2 reactor"!
Best,
George
by Mike Charlton <mike/rook.dyndns.org>
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000
David Whittaker wrote:
> Mike Charlton said...
>>It is likely that the yeast will not fully ferment all the
>>sugar available. Note that most people recommend recipes that result
>>in densities of 1100-1300. I believe this is why many people find
>>DIY yeast generators unpredictible (sometimes going for 3 weeks, sometimes
>>going for 1 week, etc).
>
>This is very interesting. Does this mean that I've been wasting
>85% of the sugar in the generators?
Well, it's hard to say. The best way to find out is to get a hydrometer
and test the density of the final solution. If you have fermented all
the way out, the density should be about 0.990 or so (alcohol is less
dense than water, so the density will go below 1). Anything more than
that represents unused sugar.
You can also taste the final liquid. If it is at all sweet, then you
still have sugar left. This isn't as good a way to do it. Even without
the alcohol, a density of 1.020 is just barely sweet. The alcohol will
mask the flavour even more.
I'm looking through the results of the CO2 experiment that David Lorenzen
did. He ended up with final densities of between 1.020 and 1.030. Now,
I can't remember what the original density was (about 1.120, I believe).
David also coaxed these bottles to produce as much CO2 as possible (at
one point keeping them in a 90 degree water bath).
I did a bit more checking. 1/4 cup of sugar (or about 62.5 ml) in 1 liter
of water has a density of about 1.020 (this will change greatly depending
on how finely the sugar is ground). I have been using this for my CO2
generator (which I change every Sunday). I measured the gravity of the
finished generator and got 0.995.
Today, I will put 1 cup of sugar in the generator. In a couple of weeks
I will post the results.
Cheers,
Mike
by "Wayne Jones" <waj/mnsi.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000
troi said
The instructions on the KRIB say I should use about or two bubbles per
minute. I am using a glass bead, low back pressure air stone on the air
line, but cannot get "one or two bubbles per minute." Without an in-line
air valve, I get a nearly steady stream of small, not tiny bubbles.
With various adjustments, I got bursts of bigger bubbles every 2 or
three seconds, streams of tiny bubbles, or very slow, but steady,
streams of small(vs tiny) bubbles. The instructions don't say what size
bubble should escape once or twice a minute, or if a burst of bubbles
from an air stone counts as one whole bubble or several bubbles. Iam
confused and concerned.
Wayne replies
You can adjust the outout of a sugar/yeast generator by changing the recipe
you use and by using different bottle sizes or using more than one bottle.
There are a lot of variables involved and I do not think there is any way to
get an exact measured amount of CO2 out of this kind of system. Basically
though, increasing the amount of yeast will increase CO2 production and
using a larger bottle will also increase production. Adding yeast nutrient
at some time during the fermentation will also dramatically increase
production and using more than one bottle started at different times will
also tend to even out CO2 production. You should not try and adjust the flow
of CO2 by choking off the supply this can cause your bottle to burst.
I use 2 one gallon jugs that are started one month apart in both my 90 and
120 gallon tanks. Smaller tanks should use smaller bottles. The recipe I now
use is 1 tsp. of wine yeast, 2 tsp. baking soda and 4 cups of sugar. I add
enough 105 degree water to the jug so that the S.G. is over 1.086. After 15
days the production starts to drop off and I then add 1/2 a tsp. of yeast
nutrient. After 40 days the production again starts to drop off and then I
add 1/2 tsp. of "yeast energizer". After 6-8 weeks it is time to start over.
Counting bubbles with yeast sugar generators has always been a bit of a
problem for me a bit of a problem for me. I have never been able to make
anything that will truly and accurately measure CO2 production. If there is
a large airspace left in the generator bottle then the gas in the bottle
will compress a little until a bubble is released and then several will come
out at once. I now use a small pop bottle with a rubber stopper in it for a
bubble counter. More than one generator can be hooked to the same counter
and I can count the bubbles from each generator separately. If there is not
too large space for the CO2 gas left in the generator bottle usually the
bubble counter works pretty well. I find the ideal bubble rate for my tanks
is just about 1 bubble per second but this is going to vary a lot depending
on your particular setup.
In the end though it doesn't really matter how many bubbles are being
produced. What really matters is how the CO2 production affects your pH.
Since there is no way to completely control CO2 production with a
yeast/sugar setup, the easiest thing is just to measure the pH of your tank.
Measure the pH of your tank before you inject CO2 and monitor it after you
inject CO2. I shoot for a pH drop of between .4 and .8 below the normal tank
value. I get really good plant growth at .6 below normal. I would be
concerned if the pH fell more than 1.0 below normal. I think that trying to
control the pH more closely than this is unrealistic given the variation in
CO2 production
troi said
The Krib article also mentions upping the efficiency and diffusion by
sticking the line in an intake or a diffuser. I am using a Rio 200
powered with prefilter and a small Aquaclear. CAn I just stick the
airline in the box of the Aquaclear or run it into the Venturi input on
the Rio? Of am I ok on a forty gal. currently lightly planted tank with
just the clumsy air stone? Should I go to a higher backpressure?
Wayne replies
There are a lot of ways to difuse the CO2 into your tank. For a small tank I
would use a bell jar type system which is not very efficient but self
limiting to certain degree as to how much CO2 gets disolved. For larger
tanks you need something more efficient. The simplest is to attach the end
of your CO2 line to the outside of your aquaclear intake with a rubber band.
This is suprisingly efficient but you have to regularily remove any debris
that accumulates around the intake or it will deflect bubbles away from the
intake. You must also keep your tank very full or the splashing of the water
will drive off the CO2 at the water surface. Another really efficient method
is to use a reverse flow difuser made from a power head and a gravel
cleaning tube. It is a little unsightly but works like a charm. There are
diagrams of this in the Krib and I like this method a lot. One thing that
really helps is to put a T in the output line from the power head before the
gravel tube. This will reduce the flow through the gravel tube and also
prevent CO2 from pushing water out of the pump impeller chamber in the event
of a power failure. If this occurs the pump may fail to prime when the power
comes back on and wreck your impellor. Another added advantage of addding
the T is excess gasses always build up in the gravel tube and to clear them
out you just have to shut the power off to the pump for a couple of seconds.
Recently I have started using another variation on this type of difuser. I
am using a medium size pump that sticks on the middle of the back of the
tank and has an aquaclear 500 sponge stuck over the intake. The output of
the pump feeds into a small T which puts some of the pump output directly
back into the tank. After the T I inject the CO2 and the balance of the
water flow goes into a 3/4" PVC spray bar mounted on the back of the hood.
The pipe is filled with some bits of plastic tubing that help to smash up
the CO2 before it gets put into the tank. I like this solution because it
looks good and I can completly control the surface agitation in the tank
while directing the water wherever I like. The system also distributes the
CO2 evenly throughout the tank, doesn't cost much, allows me to use a sponge
over the pump intake and cannot collapse my CO2 bottles. So far it has been
very reliable.
Wayne
by "II, Thomas Barr" <tcbiii/earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000
>Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 11:16:30 +0100
>From: "Buckley, Kevin" <kevin.buckley@nectech.co.uk>
>Subject: RE: DIY CO2 reliability
>
>Someone said:
>
>"Ryan, for the cost of a "good" pH meter, you would be able to get a
>perfectly sound CO2 regulator and pressurised gas system. You can forget
>about ever being able to reliably hit a specific pH with a DIY yeast
>reactor. The output is too variable."
>
Perhaps they cannot, I can and do. You can even use a controller using DIY
yeast BTW and it works very well. You still have to keep up on the changes
and not let it get low or need lots of CO2 unless you wish to hassled with
lots of brew for say larger tanks and very hard water etc.
A similar method to the one described here is using a gravel vac tube
attached to the output of your canister filter. Bubbling the CO2 up into it
and drilling a burp hole at a set level will keep too much CO2 from building
up in the tube if you need less than the tube hold etc.
Using a powerhead works by adding CO2 to its intake side and plugging it in
the controller.
A similar method can be done using a reactor that I designed for either gas
or yeast. It is self leveling and does extremely well at hitting targets.
The other kinds like Dupla's reactors work very well too but you can control
the amount with some practice.
Regards,
Tom Barr
by "Thomas Barr" <tcbiii/earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000
>> You can also use DIY Yeast with a controller. FWIW,
>
>Just don't EVER turn it off!!
>
>You'll wind up building too much pressure for the container, and well, you
>know...KABOOOM! Your living room will suddenly smell like a brewery. I know
>because it happened to me. What a mess. What a smelly _sticky_ mess.
You used a solinoid? Then this will happen if you use it in a traditional
way. Adding a T to the set up will vent off the pressure BTW. When the
solinoid is "Closed" it forces gas to build up into the reactor etc. It
takes some time for this gas to build up using this reverse solinoid method.
When it "opens" the gas is vented off to the "T". The solinoid is located on
the single bottom leg of the "T" and the CO2 line is the top portion of the
"T" going to your reactor device.
Using the powerhead method as mentioned further down in my post.....this
cannot happen BTW........when the pump is off.......no CO2 gets dissolved as
it bubbles up to escape to the air.
When the pump is on CO2 gets chewed up and spit all over your tank.
Generally, unless you use the reverse solinoid method, solinoids and Yeast
don't mix unless as you say "Kabooom" is your thing. Powerheads are cheaper
and better for CO2 uses.
Solinoids only really save some CO2 at best and are not a needed item for
CO2. The gas is cheap.
Regards,
Tom Barr
by Deepsea21/aol.com
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000
To: erik/thekrib.com
After reading most everything I could on DIY CO2 production via yeast
fermentation... I believe I have found the answer to continuous CO2
production for our tanks. Yes, it still involves the routine mixing of a 2
litre bottle, however, I use 2 bottles instead of one. The recipe is the
same... water to about 4 inches from the top of the bottle, 1 tsp of baking
soda to reduce PH, 1 tbs flour for nutrient and surface area for yeast
reproduction, 2 cups sugar, 1/2 tsp yeast.
Bottle #1 of my 2 litre bottles has the standard outlet port through the cap.
On Bottle #2 I have drilled an inlet port in the top side of the bottle as
well as one outlet port through its cap. For the ports I have found nothing
better than the plastic airline connectors that allow you to piece together
airlines that may be too short. These serve as fantastic ports to glue in
place... you will be amazed. I Use ELMERS STIX ALL. Its the best.
My #1 bottle's top outlet port runs directly into Bottle #2's inlet port on
its top side. Bottle #2's outlet port (through its cap) then runs to my tank.
In this way, I not only get almost twice the CO2 production I also get a
never ending supply which eliminates PH swings when you start a new bottle.
I change the brew in only ONE bottle about every 10 days. In this way, I
always have one bottle producing while the other is ramping up. After this
discovery, I forgot all about spending the $ on a pressurized CO2 system and
all its costly components.
by Travis & Vivian Morris <tdmorris/htcomp.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001
To: erik/thekrib.com
If nobody has considered it yet, There is a simple solution to the exploding
Co2 bottle problem. Somewhere in the Co2 line place a "T" connection going
to a balloon. The excess expanding gas will expand the balloon instead of
exploding the bottle. If there is an extreme amount of gas production the
balloon should pop before the bottle.
Travis Morris
by "John Pflum, Jr." <jpflumjr/pkgconsult.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000
> Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 19:29:41 -0500
> From: "Bonds" <akgoldrush@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Aquatic Plants Digest V4 #708
>
> I have been using the recipe from The Krib for DIY CO2 injection for about a
> month now. It seems to work pretty well for me, but stops producing after
> about a week or two. The mixture is being heated to about 80 degrees F by
> my main light on the tank 10 hours a day. The question I have is what can I
> do to make it last longer. Could adding a little salt to it help? I've
> heard that salt is added to rising bread to slow the yeasts' fermentation
> and stop it from petering out quickly. Would this hurt my plants?
> Thanks...
>
> - -tom
Tom,
There was a post to rec.aquaria.misc.plants a while back about using jello to make the
mixture last longer. I just set up my tank and am using 2 two liter bottles. One has the
Krib recipe and one has the jello. I set them up about two weeks ago and the jello is
still going strong but the other is petering out. You could probably find the recipe by
going to dejanews.com and doing a search. If you can't find it let me know and I will dig
it up for you at home.
- --
John Pflum, Jr.
PKG Consultants, Inc.
5533 Fair Lane
Cincinnati, Ohio 45227
513/272-5533
Web: http://www.pkgconsult.com
Email: jpflumjr@pkgconsult.com
by "Cathy Hartland" <hartland/nfis.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000
Bonds asked:
> I have been using the recipe from The Krib for DIY CO2 injection for about
> a month now. It seems to work pretty well for me, but stops producing
> after about a week or two. The mixture is being heated to about 80
> degrees F by my main light on the tank 10 hours a day. The question I
> have is what can I do to make it last longer.
I don't know why that recipe has remained on the Krib. Everyone
who uses it has the same problem. It uses too much yeast. Try 1/4
teaspoon, which will allow the yeast population to build up more
slowly over a longer time period, rather than exploding, using up all
the sugar, and dying back quickly.
Cathy Hartland
Middletown, MD
http://www.nfis.com/~hartland/aqua/aquaria.html
The Krib
Plants
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