The Krib Fish/Animals	[E-mail]

re: Mating Angels (again)

by calizan-at-lims05.lerc.nasa.gov (PAUL LIZANICH)
Date: 29 Jan 92

       I think I might be able to help you a little.  
It is not a little advise, it is more like alot (especially now that I 
write this paragraph after I wrote the rest- I know how long it is).
       I have had some sucess with a completely amatuer approach to
angelfish raising.  I had little to go on but 1 page from a Tetra brand
book that covered Discuses I found at a pet store.  I kindof followed the
Discus formula- I hoped all cichlidae would be similar.        
       I origionally had four angels, about 4" tall- when I
noticed that two of them continously spent their time cleaning an
undergravel filter lift tube.  The eggs were laid, fertilized, and
we were off.  
       The two fish seemed to viamently defend the entire half of the tank
preventing any other fish to enter the area they had staked out for
themselves.  I should tell you I had a 38 gallon tank, with four angels,
and a variety of about 20 other fish, mostly small tetras and Chinese
golden barbs.  As they defended their space, the fish had begun to clean
a broadleaved plant in the area.
       After some concultation, I had learned that I would have to clear
my other fish out of the tank to have any hope.  I went out and got a 30
galoon tank as a temporary home for the rest of the community.  After
a couple days, I noticed the eggs began to change.  About half the eggs
(there was about 150 total) began to darken, the others began to change
to an opaque white.
       After one more day, there was only 75 eggs left, with little tiny
tails sticking out of the them.  The eggs were about 1/8" diameter, and 
the tails were about 1/32" long.  I started a brine shrimp culture (which
takes a couple days to get started), and I begin to use this liquid food
which was for egg-hatched fish (cannot remember the name- I could find
out for you later).  After two days, the fish had used almost all their
yolk-sak, and I had to cut the power filters on the tank, since the young
would soon be on the move.  
       The stuff was "Liqui-fry", kindof a white milky stuff with grit in 
it.  
Everyone including Mom and Dad liked it.
       The next day, all the young were gone, and I thought it was a loss,
but the mother had moved all of them to the plant that she and Dad had
been busily cleaning.  They were clinging to the plant, and when they would
fall off, Mom would suck them into her mouth, and take them back to the 
plant were she would 'spit' them out towards the plant.  The kids would
stick to almost anything.  The key is to leave the light on 24-hours a day. 

Another clue (which I learned later) is to cover most of the sides of the
tank to keep light coming basically from the top only.  The little guys
get disoriented by having lights from top and sides.  You have to feed them
three times a day, and overfeed Mom/Dad to make sure they do not eat the
kids.  I hated making sure I went home to feed the fish before and after
work each day, and then again at night before going to sleep.  But raising
baby fish was cool, so I persisted (at least this one time, dunno if I 
would want to do this again- lots of work but worth it once.)
       Most of them were translucent (mom and Dad were both black marbled-
not exactly prize-winners).  Four of them were bright orange, I dunno why.
       I began the live brine shrimp feedings now.  Mom had a fit with 
all of this shrimp floating near the kids, but I had never given her live
food before (I am a low maintenace tetra-min guy).  The kids would go after
the brine, only if they were live-  They needed movement to feed.  They
don't know much else.
       The next day, Dad was off by himself so I scooped him up and put
him in the 30 gallon tank with all his old friends.  He attacked and killed
the other two angels I had in a matter of hours.  I would advise a separate
tank for Dad, you can't put him in a community tank w/o the Mother it
seems.  And definitely there cannot be any other angels inthe tank I've
been told since then.
       After another week of brine shrimp and Liqui-fry, the kids were 
swimming on their own.  By this time their numbers had fallen from 150 
eggs, to 75 tailed embryo sacs, to about 65 on the plant leaf, and a week
later they were down to about 50.  The angels kindof looked like little
tetras at this time, not much like an angelfish (actually they more closely
resembled Mbuna (which are also Cichlidae).  I phased-out the liqui-
fry and moved onto Tetra-E for egg-layers w/ brine shrimp.  I started to
alternate live brine and frozen brine.  The frozen brine was too 
transparent and non-moving for the kids it seemed.  Not everyone adapted
well at first, but they all ate the Tetra-E which didn't wiggle, so I
am not sure.  The tank was really getting pretty disgusting by now.  
I decided to cut the light during the daytime (leaving only room
lights on) and see how that would help.  It slowed the algae- but it was
getting out of hand.  They were beginning to get some color now, some
darkness began to appear on most of them.    
       After another week, I removed Mom to the community 30 gallon tank.
She and dad adapted well to eachother.  I lowered the water level in the 38
gallon to about 15 gallons, the little guys did not all that H20 to roam
in.  They were getting thicker now (bout 3/8" long, and 1/16" tall and 
1/16" wide I think), it seemed to me they resembled the Chinese Goldern 
Barbs more than angels, except in color; only one orange one was left.  
The other orange ones had perished before this.  Feeding was now down to 
twice a day (hooray!).  
       By the next week, the process was a moon old, and Mom and Dad began 

to clear off the lift tube on the 30 gallon.  They coincidently do this
on the day before the full moon, until the day after he full moon.  Maybe 
it is a tidal thing, I have no clue.  The kids were large enough for me to 
startup the power filter.  I had place a net over the tube to prevent 
having a little guy sucked into the filter.  It was kindof funny, when one 
of them would get within a foot of the intake, they would swim full speed,
and barely get out of the current (they were not too fast).  I only ran the 

power filter during the day.  The kids were starting to get taller now.  
Their bodies were growing, though the fins were still short.  They kindof
reminded me of a discus at this point.  I was down to 43 and one was
orange.  I started feeding them a variety of things now, mostly flaked
food.  I still gave them brine every 3-4 days, but I had transitioned to
Tetra-E, Tetra growth, et al. usually crushing the flakes to as small
as possible.  The fish were still only 1/2" long, and about 3/8" tall
now.
       Couple of weeks passes, and the fins started to grow, and I put the 

tank back up to the 38 gallon mark, it bagan to get crowded in there.  I 
was
saddened to lose the gold one.  He was a really pretty fish- I hadn't
seen a gold angel before that, (now I see them everywhere it seems)-
though none of them were as bright gold as mine was.  It was here I 
noticed that the fins were noe quite right.  I had 38 fish, and most of
them (30) had drouppy fins, they were not striaght and tall like Mom &
Dads were.  They just kindof drifted away from the body (the top and 
bottom fins),  the other fins were all normal.  The fish were now 3/4"
by 3/4" by 3/16", and they looked like angels.  The ones with drouppy fins
were usually marbled, but there were quite a number of varieties
in the lot, a couple or three had viel-tails, one or two had lyre-tails,
one was solid silver, two were silver with three 'thick stripes' and two
'thin stripes', eight were solid black, I even had one that was solid black
on one side, and silver-marbled on the other.  Quite a variety pack.
       By the three month mark, I had 38 kids, and they were about 1"
around, still 3/16" thick.  They acted alot like a vertical blind.  They 
use to align themselves from the bottom/left/front corner of the tank to 
the top/right/back corner, like they were attached by the side fins.
When I would walk around they would just look out into the apartment, but
when I had a friend over, when she would look at the tank, they would all
pivot toward her.  If she would walk by the tank, they would all watch her
go by.  It was funny to see 38 fish pivot one at a time like the Rockettes
or something.  It was the neatest thing to see.
       After three more months, I had a problem, a silver kid started to
clean one of those dammned lift tube from the power filter (the exact same
day that Mom and Dad started to work on the Undergravel filter tube, which
was one day before the full moon again (I swear its a tidal thing).  I 
could not figure who the lucky guy was, but I needed to nip this in the
bud.  I started to give away angels.  I gave about 20 to good homes, and
kept the other 18.  
       Things were fine until the kids were almost a year old (2.5" size). 

Then tragedy struck, the kids tank got ick and I lost all but five.  It 
came and went too fast to save them.  I have since moved to a house, and
I only have one 38 gallon tank running, the 30 is idle.  All the angels are
together now.  Mom, Dad, and 5 kids.  There are three breedable pairs now.
Mom and Dad still have dibs on the left u/g lift tube (been doin' it there
for three years now.  There is a set of kids who use the power filter tube,
and the other do it al-natural on a leaf.  So I am left with 7 angels, 
apparently 3 male, 3 female, and one I don't know.  Mom is about 7", Dad is
6", the kids are all about 3 to 4.5".  No-one fish dominates the tank since
they are all fairly good sized.  They didn't fight becase I moved them into
a 'new' tank.  Actuall it is the same tank, but I had torn it down and had
rebuilt it to look different- new plants, different look.  I had placed a
thick plant barrier in the middle, and introduced each 'set' of angels on a
different side.  Mom & Dad to this day stick to the one side, though the
kids move all over.  I have since removed the middle plants, and relocated
them to the edges of the tank.  
       That is all of my angelfish story.  I've been thinking about moving
from the Queen of the Cichlidaes to the King of the Cichlidaes.  From what
I read I understand Discus are quite hard to raise.  I do have a 30, 29, 
20 sitting around with nothing in em but gravel, and other fish supplies
like wisper powere filter filters, airline, nets, python etc..  Hmmm.

       Paul01.

       If you have any questions, you can forward them to me at one of
these locations...

paul-at-blackhole.lerc.nasa.gov
calizan-at-lims01.lerc.nasa.gov

Good luck with your fish.  It was alot of work- but it was worthwhile to
do it once.  Kindof like driving across the country, it is good to do it
the first time, next time I'll fly.

Angle Fish breeding temperature

by raible-at-cbmvax.commodore.com (Bob Raible - LSI Design)
Date: 12 Aug 92

In article <1992Aug11.230214.25699-at-tfs.com> luke-at-tfs.com (Luke Matam) writes:
>I recently became the owner of two large angle fish. I keep these in a 40 gallon
>tank together with a pair of corys. I have observed the fish kissing - lip-locked
>and wrestling and went to the library and looked up for some info about
>breeding. The temperature for breeding is listed at 86 F. This seemed very
>high to me and I would like to know if any of you have bred Angle fishes and
>what temperatures did you successfully use ?
>
>-- Luke
>-- 
>Luke S Matam
>luke-at-tfs.com
>(510) 704-3262

This is higher than required, mostly my angels (P. scalare) spawn at temps
in the 80-82 deg F range. I believe that the absolute temp isn't as 
important as temp swing. Mine tend to spawn after a water change. If you
want to maximize your odds, do a partial water change and feed worms and
other live foods for a few days. If nothing happens try raising the temp a
degree or two over several days. Good luck.

Angle Fish breeding temperature

by shine-at-cbnewsh.cb.att.com (stephen.c.shine)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992

In article raible-at-cbmvax.commodore.com (Bob Raible - LSI Design) writes:
>In article luke-at-tfs.com (Luke Matam) writes:
>>breeding. The temperature for breeding is listed at 86 F. This seemed very
>This is higher than required, mostly my angels (P. scalare) spawn at temps
>in the 80-82 deg F range. I believe that the absolute temp isn't as 

Mine breed every 2-3 weeks regularly, at 76 deg F.  I used to attribute it 
to temp flux per my water changes, but now I'm not sure.
-- 
Steve Shine
AT&T Bell Labs    (908)949-8517
att!hoqub!shine   att!cbnewsh!shine
My opinions, not my employers, not my fault, blah, blah, blah.

Breeding, Angelfish

by pjs-at-gvgdsd.GVG.TEK.COM (Peter J. Stonard)
Date: 24 Nov 92

In article <1992Nov24.085810.408-at-nuscc.nus.sg> eng10483-at-nusunix1.nus.sg (LIM
JYH DUEN) writes:
>Books on fishes always claim that Angelfish are difficult to breed.
[.....]
I did not know what to do and simply removed the
>other fishes from the aquarium, to let the Angelfish have the whole
>tank. 
However, 
[.....]
>eggs grew mouldy and was eaten up. This happened about 3 times and I was
>helpless each time the eggs were laid. 
>Once I removed both parents and blew a stream of bubbles over the 
eggs hoping that it would help, but to
[.....]
can anybody give me some tips as to what to do?

I'm sure you will get lots of advise from this group as breeding Angels
is not as difficult as some older texts suggest. Once you have a 
breeding pair, and they are kept happy with the ideal tank conditions
and premium food, they will lay eggs. There are several books that
cover Angel breeding along with other species and at least one book
devoted to Angels only. (Fish Breeding by Dr Chris Andews, Breeding
Angel fish by ?? sorry - the book is at home). 

You must decide whether to  leave the parents with the eggs or raise
the eggs artificially away from other fish and the Angel parents. I
have had most success (ie lots of babies grow to be adults) when the
eggs are separated, but watching the parents is more rewarding for
many in the hobby. Beware that the parents may eat the eggs if they
feel threatened by other fish or your hands etc. One may eat the
eggs if it thinks the other parent is not helping, mostly the male
and female share the baby raising chores equally.

The easiest way to get a breeding pair  is to start with six or more 
juveniles and wait for them to pair off. It is possible to sex them
by carefully looking at the body shape and the leading edge of the
anal fin. The most reliable method is to watch them spawn and see
who laid the eggs :*). About 24 hours prior to egg laying the genital
organs become visible. For a couple of days prior to that the pair
will select a site for egg laying and clean it very thoroughly. If you
put a strip of slate or similar material in the tank it will be easy
to get it out without disturbing the eggs.

If you take the eggs from the parents the method that works for me
is as follows:

(1) Use the water from the parents tank, add enough Methyl Blue
dye to make the water dark blue.  A small tank is ideal, I use a 10
gallon with two permenant glass dividers giving three 3 gal (10l) 
containers. I use two heaters, for reliability, and set the temp to
80 degrees. 

Place the eggs near a stream of air bubbles to promote the oxygen 
supply. Do not have a filter in the tank, but make sure a foam filter 
is ready by putting it in the parents tank when they show signs of 
nursery building, ie about a week earlier.

(2) After three days the bad eggs will have turned solid white, and
the good eggs will have split to release a fry that is attached to
the slate or leaf by a filament. 

Change 50% of the water, use water from the parents tank for the 
first few days, then use aged water from the tap, within one degree 
of the fry tank. Add the makeup water very slowly, say, through a 
length of airline tubing. Do this every 24 to 36 hours for the next 
month!  

Food is not required yet, as they feed from the yoke sac. The foam 
filter will be added when the water is clear and is a great food bar 
that's open 24hours a day! 

Start a batch of brine shrimp eggs. Start another one the next day, 
so you have two alternating jars.

(3) On the fifth day the fry will have grown eyes (My favourite part!
it only takes 24 hours for most of the eye structure to develope).
The water will be clear by now, add the sponge filter. The babies are 
heavy enough to break the filament, and typically get swept in to a 
riggling bundle. A count of 75 to 100 is good. If you have less than
a couple of dozen at this point give up until next time.

(4) Feed strained and rinsed brine shrimp naupli (sp?) three to five 
times per 24 hours. Continue with the water changes. By six weeks you 
will have baby angels that look like their parents and the body size 
will cover a US dime.

IF you have any questions, sent E-Mail.

++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++
Peter J. Stonard        +                                /^\  /^\
Grass Valley Group      +                       /^\     /   \/
Grass Valley, CA. 95945 +                     /     \ /    /  
pjs-at-gvgspd.gvg.tek.com  +     Fish keeper in the Sierra Foothills
++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++=++
If it looks like; sounds like; quacks like; an Opinion. It's mine.

[F] Pterophyllum Scalare

by oleg-at-netcom.com (Oleg Kiselev)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992

In article <carmody.725661651-at-feldspar32> carmody-at-rtsg.mot.com (Ronald P.
Carmody) writes:
>I am tring to answer the question :
>     What is the best artificial environment for Pterophyllum Scalare.

As opposed to what?  The "natural environment" for P. scalare (aka angels)
are the slow-moving, small Amazon delta streams.

>I am assuming the following : 
>     I have a one year old mated pair of Pterophyllum Scalare.  My goal
>     is to produce the healthest possible artificial environment.

You are assuming that you have a 1 year old mated pair.  Do you?  If not,
then you have to get a pair and that is not necessarily simple.  Angels do
not exhibit obvious sexual differences unless they are ready to spawn.

>1) Aquarium parameters
>       1a) Volume

As much as possible.  At least 20 gal is needed, 30 is likely to work, 60 is
better for a good-looking setup where a pair of angels can spawn and yet
the tank will not look like the usual spawning tanks (bare tanks with the
spawning medium and a simple filter).

>       1b) Dimensions

At least 18" water depth for a full-grown fish.  Wild fish get larger and
grow over 10" tall, so the tank should be deeper -- perhaps 24" or deeper.
The tank should be at least 3' long.

>       1c) Substrate

No substrate is best, but it looks less than wonderful and the rooted 
plants do not do or look well without substrate.  3-4" of coarse river sand
is a good idea for a planted tank.  About 1/2" of gravel is sufficient to
make the tank look less barren.  Natural substrate would be clay, mud and a
layer of rotting curled up tropical tree leaves.

A layer of fiberous peat will do a good job of immitating the leaf litter.
>       1d) Plants

If you want to keep with the natural look -- none.  If you want to go for
the typical "amazon" tank, use sword plants.

>       1e) Rocks

None if you want it to look narural.  Otherwise some non-reactive large
rocks will look OK.

>       1f) Other

Bogwood, roots and so on.  Angels look nice with a dark piece of bogwood
behind them.

>2) Lighting parameters
>       2a) Day Intensity

Dim.  "Light shade" to "shade" levels.  Of course, the plants will not like
it much.

>       2b) Night Intensity

None.  If you still want to see the fish, use a low-wattage red light bulb.

>       2c) Daytime duration

10-12 hrs.

>       2d) Nighttime duration

24 - 2C.

>       2e) Other

Use a Vita-Lite or some other full spectrum light.

>3) Water parameters
>       3a) Temperature

75-82F.

>       3b) pH

5.5-7.5.  Something like 6.5 pH will be good.

>       3c) Hardness

0 to medium hard.  Very soft is best.

>       3d) Ammonia level
>       3e) Nitrite level
>       3f) Nitrate level

0 on all.

>       3g) Circulation

Slow but thorough.  One tank volume per hour is sufficient in a low-load
tank, more if you don't have plants in the tank.

>4) Diet parameters
>       4a) Type

Live foods and veggie flakes.

>       4b) Quantity

Not too much.  Fish should always be willing to eat more.  

>5) Occupants (other)
>       5a) Type

Corydoras or Brochis species catfish, mid-sized tetras or pencilfishes,
hatchet fishes, non-annual rivulines.

>       5b) Quantity

For a 30 gal tank 3-6 catfishes and 6-8 tetras.  For a 60 gal tank: a dozen
tetras of a single species, 6-8 Cories, 1 Pleco.

Of course, there is a hundred other setups possible, so get yourself a few
books and read up on the fish, the plants and the habitats.
-- 
Oleg Kiselev at home                    ...use the header to find the path

[F] Starting tanks, Angel fish breeding (repost)

by Ron Sidell <sidell>
Date: Wed, 31 May 1995
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria,sci.aquaria,alt.aquaria

Hi,
  This is my second attempt to post this article.  If you've already read it,
my apologies for the duplicate posting.

  I've been breeding fresh water angel fish for about 4 years now.  The 
following notes may be of interest to some of you in this newsgroup:

  The best way I've found to start a new tank is with a sponge filter 
from an older, running tank.  Just move the filter to the new tank and 
presto, no cycling!
  I recently tried a new technique for starting a tank without risking 
any fish.  I got this idea from an article in AFM.  I set up a new 50 
gallon tank, and put 4 sponge filters in it.  One sponge filter came 
from an older tank, and had a good growth of bacteria in it.  The other 
three were new.  I then added 5ml of household ammonia to the tank.  I 
check the ammonia level with my test kit.  When the ammonia level 
dropped to zero, the tank had cycled.

  I'm currently breeding pearl-scale angel fish.  I have yet to see 
parents raise their young to adulthood.  I'm on the 4th generation of a 
selective breeding program, and the fish are looking great!  In order to 
get a breeding pair, I place about 8 young fish (1/2 dollar sized) into 
a 50 gallon community tank.  The fish pair off, and I wait for a pair to 
spawn.  I then (with my wife's help) remove the spawing pair to a 
separate honeymoon tank.  Eventually, some of the fish will fight, and I 
have to be quick to separate the loosers (or I will loose them!).
  I place a clay tile (got it at the hardware store) in the tank, 
leaning against the side.  They always lay their eggs on the tile.  Once 
the eggs are layed, I remove the parents, and add acraflavine to prevent 
fungus.
  New born fish love to eat freshly hatched brine shrimp.  I have two 
mason jars (of brine shrimp) running right now, and about 150 baby angel 
fish swimming about in a 20 gallon tank. 
  Baby fish growth seems to be limited by the following:  Cubic space 
per fish, frequency of water changes (more changes, faster growth), 
frequency of feeding live food (3-4 times per day is ideal), and lack of 
strong water current (less current is good).
  When the fish start to develop their long finnage, they are easily 
killed by turbulent water.  Once they get a bit larger (quarter sized) 
they are less sensitive.

  I hope this helps answer some of the questions I've seen asked lately.

Ron Sidell
sidell.ron-at-gene.com

**Angelfish Breeding "how to" on the WWW

by lordmayor-at-delphi.com (LordMayor)
Date: 15 Aug 1995
Newsgroup: alt.aquaria

I liked the suggestion on floating the fry vessel in the bigger heated tank to 
keep temperatures from fluctuating - I currently have 6 or 8 rubbermaid boxes
of various fry lined up on heating pads -- (besides the angels, i am first
time discovering the joys of baby zebras, cory cats, guppies, and ramshorn
snails)  I think I could float most of them in the big rubbermaid storage box
that is sitting empty.  

I am watching my other adult angels closely for pairing behavior - this is not 
as easy as it sounds.  Everytime I think I see a couple waltzing together,
they split up and wander off to another.  My original pair had not made their
love for each other apparent to me, or I should say I was too blind to see it. 
 They are the old folks of the 55 gal amazon tank.  Other angels have come and 
gone in that tank, usually moving on to another tank or just dying after a
couple of years.  So when I added newbies to the tank, I figgerred the old
timer couple were asserting territory rights, maintaining the pecking order -
never dawned on me that perhaps they were a pair.  

This pair also threw me a curve when I assigned genders to them after watching 
them prepare for spawning.  The big black one, the one that has been
absolutely king of the tank for years, was chasing everyone else to the other
end of the tank, and pretty badly ripped the fins from another fairly good
sized angel.  I had to save that one by getting it out of the tank.  Anyhow,
as me and my daughter and spouse sat back to watch the miracle of spawing,
something was wrong.  The big black one was laying the eggs and the other one
was fertilizing!  

Anyhow, whatever further tips you wish to share on the usenet or email - I am
all ears.  Or is that all eyes...like the baby angel fish who appear to be two 
eyeballs, a belly and a tail at this age. 

LordMayor-at-delphi.com

RE: Freshwater Angelfish Behavior

by "David W. Webb" <dwebb-at-ti.com>
Date: 17 Aug 1995
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria

ABC3-at-msn.com (Albert Collver) wrote:
>
> 	I keep angels in a mostly community tank. There are neons (be 
> careful -- I have 5 jumbo neons. Recently I tried to increase my neon 
> school, but every time I add new ones the Angels eat them -- they 
> leave the 5 alone, but any new additions are eaten).

When I add cardinals to my tank, I always add them to a darkened tank.
This gives them all night to acclimate before the angels get a crack at
them.  I also quarantine them for two or more weeks to get them healthy
and to acclimate them to my tank water before adding them to the tank
with the angels.  

I think you will find that neons or cardinals will be able to school 
successfully with the others and avoid being even noticed by the angels
if the angels don't see them while they are stunned from being moved to
a completely different environment.

I have been very successful with this technique, recording no losses.
I have read posts from others who have used similar methods and lost
fish, but I have never had any problems myself.

Hope this helps,

-------------------------------------------------------------
David W. Webb      
dwebb-at-ti.com
Enterprise Computing Provisioning
Texas Instruments Inc.

Any correlation between my opinions and those of Texas 
Instruments is purely coincidental.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Community- Angels.

by "Darren J. Hanson" <djhanson/calweb.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

>Sorry about this (a bit off the topic) but i have a large pair of veil-tailed
>angels spawning in my main 4ft display tank (as of 2 hours ago). The tank
consists
>of 6 other angels, 2 discus, 8 mixed dwarf cichlids and approx 40 mixed
tetras. I
>just want to know whether I should leave the angels in the tank for now and
remove
>the fry once hatched to a separate rearing tank, as the angels are quite
tolerant,
>yet still heavily parental within the tank.
>Some advice would be kindly appreciated.
>Andrew.
In my experience, hopefully not in yours, my angels have always eaten their
eggs/fry in a community tank. Since they have 'paired' off and you want to
have them raise their own, remove the eggs and hatch them artificially and
place the new parents in at least a 20 gallon of their own. They should
spawn again in about 10 days. This is the best way I know of for letting any
cichlid pair off. Put several of the same species in a tank large enough to
hold them and let nature take its course. You are more likely to get parents
that are more willing to care for their eggs and young in harmony with each
other. If you don't have another tank to separate the pair, then just watch
and take the advice of Bob Dixon and keep the tank well fed with newly
hatched brine shrimp and ground flakes for the other tank mates. The way I
get the BBS to a clutch of fry in a community tank is to use a piece of
airline tubing with a stiff piece of piping at the end and siphon some of
the shrimp up and 'blow' it into the cloud of fry. They will get the
majority of the BBS in this manner. Make sure you feed the other tank mates
very well every time you feed these new babies. This should allow the fry to
get their fill and hopefully keep the predation of the others to a minimum.

JMO

Kaycy


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Altum Angels

by "Merrill Cohen" <amc2/ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998

Karen Randall wrote:
I haven't had much experience with Altums, but as they are almost
invariably wild-caught, you're going to have much more trouble in terms of
potential parasite load, picky eating etc.  I know Merrill Cohen has a huge
one that he's had for several years.  Maybe he can comment.

My comment.............
IMHO, Altum Angels are the most gorgeous of all the Angel Fish!  Since, I
believe, that only one person in Germany has (and is) breeding them, all
that you will purchase here are caught in the "wild".  You _must_ isolate
them for at least a month and be prepared to treat them for the "plague"
that has affected Angels and Discus which is preferably lowering the pH to
4 (four) if they show any signs of hovering in a corner.  I do have more
than what Karen saw and they are worth the trouble of conditioning so that
they can be put in a well planted aquarium.  I do feed Black Worms to
entice them to eat; and when they are in good shape, they will eat flake
foods.  Strangely enough, they prefer OSI flake food over any others!  Mine
are kept at a pH of 6.8 to 7.0 and an aquarium of 30 gallons or more should
be considered for adults.  If you have further questions, write me
personally off the APD list.  One other thing that I do is use "Clout" in
the isolation aquarium to assure that they are parasite free, even if they
are acting normal.

Best wishes,

Merrill Cohen <amc2@ix.netcom.com>
AGA

OT - "Red" Angels

by "David A. Youngker" <nestor10/mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999
To: "Apisto List" <apisto/admin.listbox.com>

When Kullander reviewed the genus Pterophyllum (again) in 1986, mostly to
settle the question of whether scalare and altum were valid species or
merely subspecies (Burgess, 1976), he noted variances within the specimens
of scalare that were collection-locale dependent.

Among other things, the presence or absence and extent of red spotting on
the flanks...

-Y-

David A. Youngker
http://www.mindspring.com/~nestor10
nestor10@mindspring.com




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Spawning

by "Brown, Victoria: TMI" <Brown.Victoria/ic.gc.ca>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999
To: apisto-digest/admin.listbox.com

Reading this thread with great interest, and figured add my .02 cents worth.

Angels first,,

I got 4 super veil tail gold morph angels, at about 2 1/2 inch
body diameter,  from my friendly fish shop. Put them into a 20 gallon,
heavily planted tank till they started to push each other around.
2 started to become great friends and double teamed the other two.
A Pair!! I exclaimed, and moved them into a 15 gallon heavily  planted
tank for themselves. Both tanks running my typical apisto water with
ph about 6.4 to 6.6 and 50ppm. Well, I musta had the fishy gods smiling
on me, cause I ended up with 2 mated pairs. First pair that I
moved to the 15 gallon, ended up spawning about 2 weeks later, first
spawn, and did great. They now have a whole pile of fat little angel babies
just starting to look like mom and dad, (at least 150 of them), all swarming
around their tank, and the whole family are happy campers.

The second pair remained in the 20 gallon tank, and ended up spawning
about 2 weeks after the first pair. These 2 filled 3 leaves on a
amazon sword with eggs, and didn't do a very good job. Most eggs
weren't fertilized and turned into fuzz leaves. But Mom and Dad,
watched the fuzzy mess, and picked out afew fry that hatched out,
and moved them to a pre cleaned leaf. They fussed over these 20 or
so fry, and took great care of them until the fry went freeswimming.
Then they munched them. They spawned about 3 weeks later, same gig,
few eggs fertilized, and picked the fry out of the mess. This time,
about 3 times as many fry. But same deal again, fussed about them till
fry wanna go swimming, then munch. Today, they are cleaning leaves
again, and will spawn, probably this weekend. Wonder how they will do
this time.

My Cacatuoides, are interesting. Some mothers the very first spawn, raise 
the fry, no problems, and would live with them forever, if it came to be.
Other mothers, do great with wrigglers, and move them 2 or three times
from pot to pot until they go free swimming. Then they munch them.
Other mothers, eat the eggs, before they even hatch. I find the munchers,
though after this first spawn do better the next spawn. Sometimes they
take 3 or 4 spawns to get it right. Maybe it's a experience thing, and
the more timid the mother is, the more likely she is to munch her young.
I generally find the mothers who are very calm and will come out to see
me make better mothers. If my fish beg at the surface when they see me
they always raise their babies. I have been noticing this more and more.
The more uptight the female is, the more likely she will munch her
offspring.

I just thought I'd add this to the thread,

OHHH guess what???!!!

I am getting a colony of Lamprologus Multifasciatus, given to me
from my good friend, who gave me all the Apistos, when I started
out 3 years, ago. I am starting to buffer the water in a 10 gallon
tank this weekend. The tank tested at 6.4 yesterday,, long way to
go to 8.5. Using Tanganyika buffer stuff from Seachem, should be
interesting to see if I can get a stable PH of 8.5 happening.
Going to fish stores around here this weekend for dead snails, for
the shells. I kinda fear this experiment a bit,, I have no room
for any more tanks,, looking at furniture, now (hmm,, do i really
need a couch??)(ummm,, a bed???),,

uhhhohhhhhhhh!!!
ohhhhhnoooooooo!!!!

Vicky the Cichlididiot




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close up photography of developing angelfish fry

by gdimino <gdimino/earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999
To: erik/thekrib.com

Erik,
Please check out my new web page at
http://sites.google.com/site/angelfishphotography/ [new site - EO 2009]
It is a non-commercial site I'm developing which contains close-up
photography of the development of angelfish fry. I hope it will be of
interest to the krib audience and would greatly appreciate your
including a link to my site. I would also welcome your suggestions as to
other sites where I might send the link. Thanks in advance for your
help,
Sincerely,
James Kaufman

RE: [sacsg] Altumn Angels

by "Max Gallade" <mgallade/hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002
To: sacsg/yahoogroups.com

Alf,
I know that Horst Linke succeded breeding Altums in Germany two years ago.
I saw  offsprings of his altums at Peter Thode's  Gwynnbrook Discus farms 
.He brought back some of Linke's altums to the US from the Duisburg discus 
show for his own breeding purposes.I don't know however, if Thode succeded 
yet.
Max Gallade
Visit "The Digital Aquarium" and L&M Tropicals at:
http://clix.to/Apisto


----Original Message Follows----
From: Alf Stalsberg <stalsber@online.no>
Reply-To: sacsg@yahoogroups.com
To: sacsg@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sacsg] Altumn Angels
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 23:56:53 +0100


There has been a successful spawn with fryfrom the Altumscalare and I think
this has also been published in Cichlidnews. I don't think anyone else in
the world have done it. I know the guy very well. His name Sven Fornbäck
and he lives outside Stockholm in Sweden. He was with me to Colombia in
1993 where we collected Altum scalare in Caño San Joaquin which is a
tributarie to Rio Inirida and we did also collect altum in Rio Atabapo. He
has taken video and photos when the altum was spawning, but they have only
done this once. He breeds a lot of Discus, but has not been able to breed
the Altum again.....so fare.

Alf


At 16:39 06.02.2002 -0600, you wrote:
 >Everything I've ever seen indicates that there are few, if any, documented
 >cases of Pterophyllum altum being bred in captivity. That being the case,
 >wouldn't any "altum" which was not wild caught be suspect?
 >
 >Just a thought....
 >
 >Bob
 >   -----Original Message-----
 >   From: Sabine E. Wilkins [mailto:sewilkins@optushome.com.au]
 >   Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 3:59 PM
 >   To: sacsg@yahoogroups.com
 >   Subject: Re: [sacsg] Altumn Angels
 >
 >
 >
 >   From: "Chris Jewell" <chris@jewell68.freeserve.co.uk>
 >
 >   > Does anyone know if there are "common" x altum angels in the hobby at
 >the
 >   > moment, as I have seen lots of fish sold as altums which dont appear 
to
 >   have
 >   > the correct body depth or face profile to be altumns, but didnt look
 >like
 >   > normal silver scalare angels either. Plus they didnt have the price 
of
 >   > altums.........
 >   If they don't look right I certainly wouldn't touch them. I once bought
 >some
 >   cheaply here in Australia, because they had been locally bred, not
 >imported.
 >   They were really beautiful and easy to keep. I didn't really do 
anything
 >   special for them. I never got them to breed though. They all looked 
like
 >   males to me (once they grew up, they all developed nice humps), that 
kind
 >of
 >   makes it hard, no matter what you do. :)
 >
 >   I kept them with severums and that worked pretty well.
 >
 >   Sabine
 >
 >
 >
 >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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 >group:
 >   mailto:tonid@tonid.net.
 >   The background and subject coverage of the South American Cichlids 
Study
 >Group is available here: http://petsforum.com/SACSG/.
 >
 >
 >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
 >
 >
 >
 >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 >
 >
 >
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 >Group is available here: http://petsforum.com/SACSG/.
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 >
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[sacsg] Re: Altumn Angels

by "Tomasz Nidecki" <tonid/tonid.net>
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002
To: sacsg/yahoogroups.com

>Dont true altums have brown strips and that scalare have black
>strips..... which has always been a way of knowing they were altums and
>not scalare??  

I always thought the difference was in the strips themselves. From what I
noticed, altums have strips that are, I believe, alternating - thick and
thin (lighter), while scalare have their strips usually all of similar
width and intensity... Also when I see an altum I know why it's called an
altum, it is visibly 'higher' than any scalare I've seen :).

-- 
tomasz 'tonid' nidecki, zoliborz, warszawa, poland
mailto:tonid@tonid.net http://endemic.tonid.net



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[sacsg] Re: Altumn Angels

by leeharper/aol.com
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002
To: sacsg/yahoogroups.com

In a message dated 2/8/02 9:26:54 AM, BigJohnW@Webtv.net writes:

<< 
Dont true altums have brown strips and that scalare have black
strips..... which has always been a way of knowing they were altums and
not scalare??   >>

Hello John,
    I have read articles that say black vs. brown stripes is a locality 
thing, not a species thing. I don't know and maybe no one knows. There are 
some folks who claim that the ones in Peru are P. leopoldi. Until someone 
does DNA (maybe already has been done) sequence analysis, we won't even know 
if there is more than one species.

Lee

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RE:Swords and angels

by "Thomas Barr" <tcbiii/earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000

>I would recommend Cryptocoryne Balansae or Retrospiralis.  If you are
>thinking vertical, these 2 plants should suit you fine.  Unlike
>Echinodoruses, they don't grow into huge bunches. 

I think in George's tank ......the Crypts will get like mine which most
folks WOULD call huge bunches:)
Still better IMO than swords but some swords are very nice and suitable.
Crypts don't get as out of hand as many swords often do.
 
 They propagate by
>runners and there's always space between their leaves for Altums to
>swim.

Discus & Angels are fine in thick cover, more so than one might think. 
Altums need a good place to duck into, not the whole tank crammed full. I'm
sure there will be ample space for them in George's tank. The Altums had no
problem going into the big sword leaves.
>
>Another point which I forgot to bring up in my last post - if you are
>planning to keep small fish which are surface swimmers together with
>Altums, it's a bad idea.  Surface swimmers (like Zebra Danios, for
>instance) by the fact that they are always in the open, are practically
>dead fish the moment an Altum arrives in the tank.

We have cardinals and rummies noses in there. No problems. Its been  quite
some time. They like worms and brine:). They (Altums) are skittish fish
though. I've never heard of them eating any of the fish in this tank nor
seen it. We had some baby swordtails(perhaps a 100) in there so they have
the source if they wish. If they eat those it would be a good thing:)
Regards, 
Tom Barr

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