Chlorine
Contents:
- Novaqua and phosphates
by oleg-at-Veritas.COM (Oleg Kiselev) (26 Aug 92)
- Python Water Changer and Chlorine Removal
by mbmccabe-at-bronze.coil.com (Matt McCabe) (23 Aug 1994)
- Amquel Data
by ac554-at-FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Whittaker) (Mon, 5 Sep 1994)
- Are dechlorinators really necessary?
by ac554-at-FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Whittaker) (Thu, 25 Aug 1994)
- Chloramine==Ammonia??
by hougen-at-pico.cs.umn.edu (Dean Hougen) (Thu, 25 Aug 1994)
- Chloramine==Ammonia??
by Neil.Frank-at-launchpad.unc.edu (Neil Frank) (6 Aug 1994)
- Aquatic Plants Digest V1 #239
by ac554-at-freenet.carleton.ca (David Whittaker) (Sat, 12 Aug 1995)
- Chlorine removal and plants
by ac554/FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Whittaker) (30 Mar 1997)
- Aquatic Plants Digest V2 #1104
by krandall/world.std.com (Fri, 28 Nov 1997)
- AmQuel: How it Works
by dresler/cabell.vcu.edu (Dan Resler) (Thu, 24 Feb 1994)
- Some tap water info...
by harold/wam.umd.edu (James B. Harold) (Mon, 27 Apr 1992)
- Chloramines??
by oleg/netcom.com (Oleg Kiselev) (Tue, 17 Aug 1993)
- Chlorine in tap water
by Steve Pushak <teban/powersonic.bc.ca> (Tue, 03 Nov 1998)
- Chloramine remover
by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com> (Sun, 04 Apr 1999)
- ph & hardness
by Stan Jamrog <fireman/shaysnet.com> (Mon, 17 May 1999)
- Chloramine.
by Wright Huntley <huntley1/home.com> (Fri, 09 Apr 1999)
- Filters for chloramine/chlorine
by Wright Huntley <huntley1/home.com> (Tue, 20 Jul 1999)
- Amquel
by ac554/freenet.carleton.ca (David Whittaker) (Thu, 23 Mar 2000)
- RE: thiosulphate
by Mark Fisher <Mark.Fisher/tpwd.state.tx.us> (Mon, 24 Jan 2000)
- Potash
by "Roger S. Miller" <rgrmill/rt66.com> (Fri, 19 May 2000)
- Sodium thiosulfate
by "Jamie Johnson" <jjohnson/davisfloyd.com> (Thu, 23 Mar 2000)
- More on Ammonia
by SCraig9087/aol.com ()
- AmQuel
by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com> (Thu, 14 Dec 2000)
- Prime and dechlorinators, heavy metals vs. nutrients
by Greg Morin <greg/seachem.com> (Fri, 9 Feb 2001)
by oleg-at-Veritas.COM (Oleg Kiselev)
Date: 26 Aug 92
jony-at-microsoft.com (Jon Yeargers) writes:
>what do you recommend for water conditioners? We are having a drought
>here in Seattle right now, so the city is putting 2-3x chlorine in
Use sodium thiosulphate -- available cheap in large quantities from chemical
supply houses, or at outrageous prices in small diluted quantities from
the pet shops. It works great on chlorine.
For ammonia/chloramines I find AmQuell to be the most reliable.
--
"Republicans understand the importance of bondage between a mother and
child." -- Dan Quayle
Oleg Kiselev oleg-at-veritas.com
by mbmccabe-at-bronze.coil.com (Matt McCabe)
Date: 23 Aug 1994
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria
>I was wondering how to
>de-chlorinate (and de-chloramine) the water while using this device. Do
>Amquell and Novaqua and perform a 1/4 to 1/3 change every two weeks. I
>have heard that small amounts of chlorine can act as a disinfectant and
>would have beneficial effects on the tank. I would like some advice
>before subjecting my fish to this "benefit", however.
If you are working with water that has chloramine, then the topic
warants further discussion. (below) If your water has Chlorine only,
then I would tell you not to worry about it. I knwo George Booth
convinced me -- he dons't use any dechlor at all on his water. I don't
either except on really small (10gal or less) tanks where the Cl
consentration may still be high.
If you're working with Chloramine, go buy a MiracleGro
lawn-fertilizer spreader and attatch it in-line to your Python. Dilute
your Amquel/NovAqua (why both?) down to an appropriate solution and you're
set. (AmQuel suggests 1tsp/10gal. The spreaders usually mix at a rate of
1tsp/gal or somewhere in that neighborhood at the lowest, some have
variable control that doesn't get any lower a mix that that.
(I suggest the MiracleGro spreader because it was the only one I could
find that has a hose IN and OUT. If you don't mind some _major_
agitation, you can attatch virtially any spreader to the _end_ of your
Python.)
--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress
depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw
-=-=-=-=- Matt McCabe -=-=-=-=-=-=-=- mbmccabe-at-bronze.coil.com -=-=-=-=-
Newsgroups: rec.aquaria
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From: hougen-at-centi.cs.umn.edu (Dean Hougen)
Subject: Re: Python Water Changer and Chlorine Removal
Message-ID: <Cv0vH2.Hy5-at-news.cis.umn.edu>
Summary: AmQuel for chloramines
Sender: news-at-news.cis.umn.edu (Usenet News Administration)
Nntp-Posting-Host: centi.cs.umn.edu
Organization: University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, CSci dept.
References: <33cure$e31-at-kodak.rdcs.Kodak.COM>
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 04:36:05 GMT
Lines: 13
I'm surprised at the number of people saying to go through strange
machinations for chloramine removal. We've got chloramines in our
water supply, and in high doses. If only a dechlorinator is used,
the free ammonia may kill the fish after only a few minutes on as
little as a 30% water change. (It varies depending on the time of
the year.) On the other hand, using AmQuel, I can just dump the
recommended dosage in the tank and turn on the hose. It not only
neutralizes the chlorine rapidly, it also binds with the ammonia
quickly enough that I've never seen the fish stressed as a result.
Dean Hougen
--
"Water flowing under ground." - Talking Heads
by ac554-at-FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Whittaker)
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 1994
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria
Below is some information submitted to me by Dan Resler which is
reposted for general interest. He says-
The following info comes from the AmQuel data-sheet (from Kordon).
I am in no way advocating the use of AmQuel or vouching for the
accuracy of the info contained in their blurb.
--- begin quote ---
The active ingredient in AmQuel is known chemically as sodium
hydroxymethanesulfonate, HOCH SO Na. [nice graphic of molecule goes here] 2 3
The hydroxymethane end of the molecule reacts with ammonia to form a
non-toxic, stable water-soluble substance which is acted upon by
biological filtration.
This reaction effectively removes the toxic ammonia from solution.
Even in water of low pH (< 7.0) the above reaction proceeds to
completion. This is because even at pHs below 7.0 there is always some
"free" ammonia (NH ) and the AmQuel will scavenge it from the water.
3
This is why AmQuel works faster at higher pHs and in saline waters.
[
graphic with following equation:
ammonia AmQuel aminomethanesulfonate water
NH + HOCH SO - ==> H NCH SO - + H O
3 2 3 2 2 3 2
]
The substance formed is stable, and testing has shown that even after
weeks in an aquarium without a biological filter, the ammonia is not
released back into the water. Also, un-reacted AmQuel is stable, and
unless removed with water changes or granular activated carbon it will
be available to react with ammonia until is is exhausted in the water
to which it was added. This is why AmQuel has proven so useful in
shipping fishes.
The sulfonate end of the AmQuel molecule reacts with both free
available chlorine, known properly as hypochlorites (OCL) and
combined-available chlorine (chloramines). In the first instance
nothing more than harmless chloride ions (CL) are produced, and in the
latter instance chloride ions are formed and the freed ammonia
instantly reacts with the hydroxy-methane end of the molecule.
--- end quote ---
The data sheet goes on to talk about how AmQuel is harmless to plants,
fishes, invertebrates, and biological filters but that it will
interfere with the workings of methylene blue, acriflavine, and
malachite green (in a non-toxic way). They also go on to talk about
how Nessler-type test reagents are useless when you use AmQuel (they
report false, high ammonia concentrations); you must use Ammonia test
kits that use salicylate-type reagents (like Kordon's kit, of course).
The number for more info or copies of this data sheet: U.S. 510-782-4058
FAX 510-784-0945
Their address: Novalek, Inc
2242 Davis Ct.
Hayward, CA 94545
dan
--
Dan Resler email: resler-at-liberty.mas.vcu.edu
Dept. of Mathematical Sciences
Virginia Commonwealth University
Richmond, VA 23284-2014 USA
--
by ac554-at-FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Whittaker)
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria
In a previous article, narten-at-cs.duke.edu (Thomas Narten) says:
>Subject sums it up. When doing partial water changes, is it necessary
>to add dechloriniators? Ground rules for this discussion:
Yes, for chloramine; no, for small amounts of chlorinated water.
>1) Chloramine is a whole other beast. Nuke the chlorine (well,
>chemically remove it), and you've got instant ammonia. Not smart.
What if the resulting water contains less than 0.1 ppm ammonia?
How much can your fish take temporarily? Depends upon the species?
>2) I know that lots of folks don't bother and haven't had
>problems. That was me for many years as well. But to make the
>discussion relevant:
>
> a) How much water are you replacing at one time? The less water you
> add, the more dilute the chlorine would be, making it less of a
> potential problem.
>
> b) How much chlorine does your tap water contain? I know this is a
> toughy. My understanding is that in the US, federal guidelines call
> for something like 1ppm chlorine measurable at the destination
> tap. That means folks far away from the water plant get water with
> just a little chlorine, those closer get more. How much more depends
> on your water company. They may put in a lot at the water plant end,
> in order to be sure that everyone faucet still has the proper amount
> of chlorine.
You are correct. Often tap water falls well short of 1 ppm, sometimes as
low as 0.2 ppm which is the minimum required to kill bacteria over a period
of ten minutes. That's why cities are switching to chloramine which does
not degrade as easily as chlorine.
With chlorine treatment, between 0.2 and 1.5 ppm reaches the home depending
upon how close one is to the treatment plant and the quality of its effluent.
Some cities add more than 1.5 ppm. Phone your water authority.
With chloramine treatment, between 0.8 and 1.5 ppm are added at the plant
in Ottawa depending upon the season. There is little degradation with
distance from the point of application. Again, some cities may require more.
> c) does anyone know of any pointers to literature or have any info
> along the lines of:
>
> i. What concentrations of chlorine stress/kill fish, and how quickly?
For chloramine I've read: 1)stress 0.1 ppm, 2)slow death 0.25 ppm,
3)quick death 0.5 ppm. It would depend upon the fish and I must confess
that I do not believe these figures. These levels seem pretty low.
> ii. How quickly does the a bucket of water with an airstone give up
> the chlorine? Doesn't it simply escape to the atmosphere?
Most escapes into the air within 24 hours. Airstone helps.
>3) Does anyone have any pretty clear suspicion that chlorine in a
>water change led to fish stress and/or death? Sorry, deaths after not
>changing water in three months doesn't count; pH swings alone might
>explain the deaths.
Not me.
>I know lots of folks in the fish business who use dechlorinators for
>the simple reason that it's cheap insurance. They're not convinced
>they are really necessary.
>narten-at-cs.duke.edu
>
There is data around somewhere. One would have to check out various
journals concerning water treatment at a library. A good project for
someone.
--
by hougen-at-pico.cs.umn.edu (Dean Hougen)
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria
In article <3341pm$btv-at-apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> cb77-at-merhaba.cc.columbia.edu (Craig Bingman) writes:
>I'm overjoyed that you told people it was fine to cut loose free ammonia
>in their tanks over something that you cannot back up with facts.
[And then later:]
>
>You managed to impugn the safety of one product (Amquel) which has been
>used effectively by many, many people in this group for many years, in
>concentrations no doubt several times that required to neutralize chloramine.
>
>You also managed to give advice that just might have led to wipeouts in
>marine or rift lake cichlid tanks.
>
>Craig Bingman
I've got to agree with Craig here. Every now and then, somebody with
no experience with chloramines or with very minor concentrations of
chloramine only, will come on the net and say something along the lines
of "Just neutralize the chlorine, the ammonia will be removed by the
plants and/or filtration."
As I generally say in response, this is a *bad* idea. My opinion is
not based on scientific experimentation, or on rigorous testing, just
on anecdotal evidence. Anecdotes like the following: Do a 30% water
change on a tank using the recommended dose (or higher) of a chlorine
remover alone, wait a few minutes and see a tank of spinning fish,
wait a few minutes more and see a tank of dead fish. Do a 30% water
change on a tank using the recommended dose of chloramine remove,
everything appears fine. This has been my experience regardless of
chlorine and chloramine remover used (although I haven't been
exhaustive in trying them all), but I prefer AmQuel for a number of
reasons.
I am, btw, one of those people Craig talks about who have used AmQuel
at many times the recommended dosage at times, with no apparent ill
effects.
I have seen fish deaths that I chalk up to AmQuel poisoning, but this
was using AmQuel at *many* times the recommended dosage. (A friend
was shipping baby fish and put enough AmQuel in a tiny bag to treat
at least a twenty gallon tank. I told him not to, but he didn't
listen. This is why I use PolyFilter when shipping fish, rather than
sqirts of AmQuel or whatever.) This doesn't mean, however, that AmQuel
is dangerous at the recommended dosage or there about. (If you take
a fish and toss it into a bag of salt, I can guarantee that it will
die. That doesn't mean that adding a bit of salt to your tank is bad
for your fish.)
Dean Hougen
--
"You're an accident waiting to happen,
You're a piece of glass washed up on the beach." - U2
by Neil.Frank-at-launchpad.unc.edu (Neil Frank)
Date: 6 Aug 1994
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria
In article <Cu3v68.IKI-at-freenet.carleton.ca>,
David Whittaker <ac554-at-FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote
>Use a standard sodium thiosulfate declorinator for both
>chlorine and chloramine. However, for chloramine use it double strength.
>Some (and I am being cagey here) products designated to neutralize chloramine
>are known by their manufacturers to be toxic to fish at concentrations
>higher than that recommended on the bottle. ie, you have to be fairly precise.
>The old standard however is very forgiving. No one advertises this as it is
>likely to hurt sales. Moderate plant growth will take care of any excess
>ammonia released by the application of sodium thiosulfate to chloramine.
>--
>
Yup, declorinators (like thiosulfate) will break the chlorine + ammonia
bond and set the ammonia free (so as I am told). This replaces toxic
choraimine with potentially toxic ammonia. Now, extra thiosulfate will
handle the free clorine. SO, that leaves the ammonia...
The concentration of the released ammonia will be related to the concentration
of the original chloramine. I can't remember the details, but the resultant
concentration depends on whether you have mono or di-chloramine (NH2Cl
or NHCl2); John Kuhns says it is likely the later. Anyway, the resultant
ammonia concentration is something similar to the chloramine concentration.
So, I think we are talking about 1 to 2 ppm (mg/l) of ammonia (to be diluted
according to the % water change). For 50 % change you can have 1 ppm
of ammonia. The amount of this that is toxic to fish will depend mostly on pH
but also on temperature. (There is an equilibrium between
toxic NH3 and non-toxic NH4). Worst case is high pH and high temperature.
At 8.5 pH and 86 deg, 20 percent would be toxic NH3 (~ 0.2 ppm). This is a
lot and roughly corresponds to lethal dose for 1-hr exposure. This does not
apply to all fish; goldfish can live in windex :-)
Now, back to the post - the potential role of plants: Plants like
ammonia and will soak it up. Even, moderate plant growth will take
care of any excess ammonia, but I do not know *how quickly*. I have
heavily planted tanks, but have not studied the rate of ammonia assilimation
and I am not ready to run this experiment with *my* fish :-) I have been
wimping out and adding choramine treatment during my water changes since
Raleigh started to add ammonia to the water treatment last year. If Boulder
has Chloramines, maybe George can test the use of de-chlorinator only
with his Discus. They should be good test specimens.
NF
--
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Launchpad is an experimental internet BBS. The views of its users do not
necessarily represent those of UNC-Chapel Hill, OIT, or the SysOps.
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by ac554-at-freenet.carleton.ca (David Whittaker)
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995
>From: huntley-at-ix.netcom.com (WRIGHT HUNTLEY )
>Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 13:38:00 -0700
>Subject: Re: Death In a New Plant Tank
>The solution is to have a serious conversation with your water dept.
>engineers, and find out what you are dealing with locally.
Most local water authorities will provide a copy of the water
analysis that their labs carry out during the year of both the
raw water and the treated effluent that arrives through your tap.
>How much sodium thiosulphate is an appropriate amount to use, and what does it
>do with chloramines? I have photographic sodium thiosulphate on hand, but
>wouldn't know how to use it if we did have that hypothetical emergency. Is
>trial and error, with a chlorine test, the best way?
Sodium thiosulfate is not toxic to fish in the amounts of which we
are discussing. 7.4 units of sodium thiosulfate are needed to neutralize
one unit of chlorine at pH 11.0. At neutral pH, twice as much is needed.
Unfortunately, my understanding is that many manufacturers base the
dosages advocated on the bottle on those required at pH 11.0. This
means that one really should be doubling the dosage. If you have the
pure stuff, it should be relatively easy to figure out what you
require in your area. I stole this from a good article on chlorine
treatment posted in the fish area on Compuserve two years ago. I believe
the dosage refers to chlorine, not chloramine. For chloramine
you might want to double again.
>Does anyone know if sodium thiosulphate precipitates Fe, Mg, Cu or other
>trace plant nutrients?
No idea, but I really wouldn't expect so.
by ac554/FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Whittaker)
Date: 30 Mar 1997
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Carter Fields (cfields-at-nwu.edu) writes:
> What do you people use to remove chlorine from tap water during water changes?
>
> I use Tetra ContraChlor, which neutralizes chlorine and chloramine. It works
> great...just add a few ml of it to the new water and the chlorine is gone.
>
> HOwever, I noticed that this stuff also removes iron and copper (says so on
> the label). Unfortunately, I have live plants in my tank and I am worried
> that the ContraChlor is removing all the iron and copper in my tank. The
> plants need this iron and copper for healthy growth. What should I do? Is
> there another way to remove the chlorine during water changes without removing
> the iron and copper?
Using an activated carbon filter in the aquarium to remove chlorine is
not a great idea, since it will also remove chelated iron. It is also
a fairly slow process and one has no indication of the efficacy of the
product and the duration of its effect. Prefiltering the tapwater with
two filters in series and subsequently adding the required trace elements
as suggested in the above posting should work. However, it seems to me
to be a lot of trouble. Also this is not a reliable method of removing
chloramine, only chlorine. To remove chloramine, the activated carbon
must be of very high quality, the pass through column long, and the
flow rate slow.
You have two choices which will depend upon the methods used by your
local water treatment plant to deal with bacteria in the water supply.
1) If you have only chlorine in the tapwater use any product that
contains sodium thiosulfate. DECHLOR-IT by Aquatronics and CHLORINE
REMOVER by Fritz are two products which I have found to be adequate.
2) If you have chloramine you can use AMQUEL safely.
As an alternative, if your pH is below 7.5 in the tank, the water
contains less than 1 ppm chloramine, the water change is 30% or
less, you have lots of growing plants or decent biological
filtration, you will be fine using sodium thiosulfate at double
the dosage for chlorine. I do up to 80% water changes in my planted
tanks with no apparent ill effect to the fish.
Do not use a sodium thiosulfate product in a marine tank, in an
African cichlid setup, or in any tank with a high pH if there is
chloramine in the tapwater. The ammonia released will likely harm
or kill the inhabitants. AMQUEL or PRIME are better candidates.
--
Dave Whittaker
ac554-at-FreeNet.Carleton.ca
by krandall/world.std.com
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997
Subject: Re:water conditioners and chloramine
Don Hutton wrote:
>>However, I still wonder if the chloramine remover
>>will deprive the plants of ammonia. It seems to me that it
>>would be difficult to dose just the right amount of
>>chloramine remover such that there was no effect
>>on the ammonia produced by fish waste etc.
The ammonia is not "removed", it is bound up with another chemical which
keeps it from being toxic to your fish. (That's why, using some types of
test kits your water still tests as if there is a large quantity of ammonia
present) I have been assured by John Farrell Kuhns of Kordon that this
ammonia is still in a form that nitrifying bacteria can access it, which
means that it will not interfere the the establishment of nitrifying
bacteria in a new fish tank. I would suspect that if it can be accessed by
bacteria, it can also be accessed by plants.
In any case, even if it really _did_ lock the ammonia away from the plants,
I'm not sure what the options you would have with fish in the tank.
Sometimes we need to choose the lesser of two evils. It is certainly
possible to supplement nitrogen in a planted tank in forms that are not
dangerous to your fish. If you kill all your fish off, however, you'll
certainly have more nitrogen available than you need!<g>
Karen Randall
Aquatic Gardeners Association
by dresler/cabell.vcu.edu (Dan Resler)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria
The following info comes from the AmQuel data-sheet (from Kordon).
I am in no way advocating the use of AmQuel or vouching for the
accuracy of the info contained in their blurb.
--- begin quote ---
The active ingredient in AmQuel is known chemically as sodium
hydroxymethanesulfonate, HOCH SO Na. [nice graphic of molecule]
2 3
The hydroxymethane end of the molecule reacts with ammonia to form a
non-toxic, stable water-soluble substance which is acted upon by
biological filtration.
This reaction effectively removes the toxic ammonia from solution.
Even in water of low pH (< 7.0) the above reaction proceeds to
completion. This is because even at pHs below 7.0 there is always some
"free" ammonia (NH ) and the AmQuel will scavenge it from the water.
3
This is why AmQuel works faster at higher pHs and in saline waters.
[
graphic with following equation:
ammonia AmQuel aminomethanesulfonate water
NH + HOCH SO - ==> H NCH SO - + H O
3 2 3 2 2 3 2
]
The substance formed is stable, and testing has shown that even after
weeks in an aquarium without a biological filter, the ammonia is not
released back into the water. Also, un-reacted AmQuel is stable, and
unless removed with water changes or granular activated carbon it will
be available to react with ammonia until is is exhausted in the water
to which it was added. This is why AmQuel has proven so useful in
shipping fishes.
The sulfonate end of the AmQuel molecule reacts with both free
available chlorine, known properly as hypochlorites (OCL) and
combined-available chlorine (chloramines). In the first instance
nothing more than harmless chloride ions (CL) are produced, and in the
latter instance chloride ions are formed and the freed ammonia
instantly reacts with the hydroxy-methane end of the molecule.
--- end quote ---
The data sheet goes on to talk about how AmQuel is harmless to plants,
fishes, invertebrates, and biological filters but that it will
interfere with the workings of methylene blue, acriflavine, and
malachite green (in a non-toxic way). They also go on to talk about
how Nessler-type test reagents are useless when you use AmQuel (they
report false, high ammonia concentrations); you must use Ammonia test
kits that use salicylate-type reagents (like Kordon's kit, of course).
The number for more info or copies of this data sheet: U.S. 510-782-4058
FAX 510-784-0945
Their address: Novalek, Inc
2242 Davis Ct.
Hayward, CA 94545
dan
--
Dan Resler
Dept. of Mathematical Sciences email: dresler-at-cabell.vcu.edu
Virginia Commonwealth University
Richmond, Virginia, USA 23284-2014
by harold/wam.umd.edu (James B. Harold)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1992
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria,alt.aquaria,sci.aquaria
Hi all...
The Washington Post Magazine had an interesting (and fairly
amusing) article last Sunday (4/25/92) on how water is
treated before reaching our taps (and our tanks). A lot of
it is only relevant to those of us in the DC area, but there
were some interesting points made that I thought the net
might appreciate.
(1) The chemicals added can vary dramatically during
different times of the year. For instance, Fairfax adds
chloromines during the winter months and chlorine during
the summer months. So don't test your water in June and
assume that you're chloromine free for the year...
(2) Apparently some new EPA standards are coming on line
soon. In DC, the result may be an increase of the pH of
tap water from 7.5 to 8.2 (in order to decrease
lead levels). Something to watch for (unless you keep
African Cichlids :-) ).
(3) A couple of experimental alternatives to chlorine
mentioned were potassium permanganate and ozone, though
ozone has too short a half life to keep them happy (they
want the disinfectant to still be active all the way
to your house...).
(4) As EPA limits become stricter, water treatment will
become more expensive, and rates will go up. Still, given
the fraction of our daily usage that goes to tanks (the
average per capita water use in this region is about 100gpday),
I doubt this is an issue for the hobby.
Happy water changes....
James Harold
harold-at-wam.umd.edu
by oleg/netcom.com (Oleg Kiselev)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria
In article <24l1ps$9vp-at-samba.oit.unc.edu> Neil.Frank-at-launchpad.unc.edu (Neil Frank) writes:
->Chloramine is N*H*CL2 or N*H2*Cl (I think). What happes to the
-chloramine, when you add "de-chlorinator", i.e. sodium thiosulfate,
-instead of chloramine remover.
"Cloramines" are a whole family of products of interaction of NH3 and Cl2
with each other and the water. When you add a dechlorinator, the Cl2 part
of the brew is neutralized (reacted with and bound), leaving behind the
ammonia, NH3. This is why the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals "decloraminator"
requires using zeolite filtration after dechlor to get rid of the NH3.
->Also, does anyone know what ammonium compound is formed with the
-addition of chloramine remover. How much ammonium, and why is it
-non-toxic (especially in marine aquaria)? >Any suggested references?
I vaguely recall seeing a flyer by Kordon describing how AmQuell works.
They use rather large molecules to split up and bind Cl2 and to bind NH3.
The formula for AmQuell is not secret because it's patented,
->Finally, an easier one: > does anyone add (small amounts) of
-chloramine water to aquaria without bothering to treat??
Richard Sexton used to, many years ago. Then one day he killed a half
of his fish in a water change.
While I lived in LA, I solved the problem of chloramines by using a
home-made in-line activated carbon filter, which worked great.
--
Oleg Kiselev at home ...use the header to find the path
by Steve Pushak <teban/powersonic.bc.ca>
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998
If possible, leaving your tap water overnight should deal with chlorine
(but not chloramine, for that you MUST use a some form of dechlorinating
agent).
One of our experienced guys from the Vancouver Aquarium told us that you
can remove ordinary chlorine just by spraying the water in a fine mist.
All you need is an ordinary garden attachment for the end of your
Python.
- --
Steve Pushak Vancouver, BC, CANADA
Visit "Steve's Aquatic Page" http://home.infinet.net/teban/
for LOTS of pics, tips and links for aquatic gardening!!!
------------------------------
by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999
To: apisto/admin.listbox.com
[Editor's Note: See CORRECTION by JFK on Mike's article below!]
I wouldn't recommend using photographic fixer since it has additional hardening
agents in it. These are used to harden the coating in which the silver emulsion is
imbedded on the film and photo paper. Sodium Thiosulfate works fine. This is the
primary dechlorinating agent in most dechlorinators. Leaving chloramine treated
water out for a day will not dissipate the chlorine in the water. The chlorine is
bonded to ammonia to form a more stable compound that doesn't break down in air
very easily. This is why so many communities in the U.S. & Canada use it instead
of chlorine to sterilize their water. It doesn't break down and dissipate while in
the water lines. I've been told that in takes 2 weeks of aeration to dissipate
chlorine from chloramine treated water, but I would bet it's more like a week. The
minor amount of ammonia left from dechlorinating chloramine treated water is
quickly removed by any established biological filter.
AmQuel also uses Sodium Thiosulfate to break the chlorine/ammonia bond in
chloramines. The ammonia is then bonded to a colloid of some sort. At least that's
what their reps have told me in the past. This bond will release the ammonia
(usually slowly) after a day or so, but by then the biological filter will have
done it's duty. Personally, I use the cheapest dechlorinator I can find when
changing tanks (<20%). This is mostly a psychological prop, since all but the most
sensitive fish can handle this kind of water change without dechlorinating.
Mike Wise
IDMiamiBob@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 4/4/99 8:48:04 AM EST, nestor10@mindspring.com writes:
>
> > >Does anyone know the name of the chemical for removing Chloramine...
> >
> > That would be sodium thiosulfate (Na2S2O3*5H2O). It is prepared at 0.1 M in
> > a standard solution, used at 2 drops per gallon.
> >
> > If he has a source or chemist, 0.1 M translates to 25 grams dissolved in
> > water to make 1 liter of solution.
> >
> If you have trouble finding it from a chemical suply shop, stop by the local
> photographer. They call it "hypo". However, it doesn't really remove
> chlorine. It binds the chlorine, then releases it slowly over a day or so,
> and the chlorine dissipates to atmosphere. Then you're left with the hypo in
> your water. So why not just keep a bucket of water overnight and let the
> chlorine come out for less money?
>
> Bob Dixon
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com.
> For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
> email apisto-request@majordomo.pobox.com.
> Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
by Stan Jamrog <fireman/shaysnet.com>
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999
To: apisto/admin.listbox.com
Nope, just letting water "age" does nothing. What a lot of discus breeders will
do is get a large 55 gallon #2 HDPE trash container, throw in a filter, or air
stone, a heater, and peat. This allows for water changes of identical parameters
of the water in the tank, for fish that are very sensitive to chemistry changes,
like discus. Sorry for not being clearer. Stan
IDMiamiBob@aol.com wrote:
> Most folks on this list agree that the peat thing is definitely both easy and
> effective, as well as in some enigmatic way beneficial to the overall
> vitality and breedability of the fish.
>
> I have never heard that just letting water age would drop pH or reduce
> hardness, except when that water is in a "living" system involving both flora
> and fauna.
>
> Bob Dixon
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com.
> For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
> email apisto-request@majordomo.pobox.com.
> Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
--
----------------------------------------------------
If the mind is right, the sword is right. If the mind is wrong, the sword is
wrong. If you wish to follow the Way of the sword, you must first study the Way
of the Mind. -Anonymous (I forget who said it first)
AquariumCare can be found at: http://shaysnet.com/~freaks/aquarium.htm
:My ICQ# is 14976865
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com.
For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
email apisto-request@majordomo.pobox.com.
Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
by Wright Huntley <huntley1/home.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999
>
> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 16:57:58 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "Richard J. Sexton" <richard@aquaria.net>
> Subject: Chloramine.
>
> >From: Dave Gomberg <gomberg@wcf.com>
> >Subject: Dealing with chloramine
> >
> >As a planted tank fish keeper who will have to deal with chloramine treated
> >water in a couple of years I have some questions.
>
> Amquel. Period.
>
Sorry Richard, but you snipped the more pertinent parts of Dave's
question. In connection with *plants*, the use of "Amquel", "Prime" and
other ammonia grabbers is questionable, at best.
IMHO, overuse can even kill rugged plants like Java moss, by
sequestering all the nitrogenous macronutrients from the water. I have
oscillated between careful carbon filtering and "Amquel" to treat my low
level chloramine, here. My preliminary observations are that my plants
grow considerably better in the carbon-filtered water.
Some of this is confused because I was often using "Novaqua" with the
"Amquel" and it can trap essential micronutrients, also. I *think* the
effects were additive, but am not really sure.
The trouble with carbon-cartridge filters is that they can "punch
through" when old or when the flow rate is excessive. I use two in
series, with a tap between to test for chlorine. When #1 is leaking some
thru, I replace with the essentially unused #2 and add a new one there.
A valve restricts flow to very slowly fill my trash-can reservoirs. A
swamp-cooler valve prevents overflows due to my poor memory.
One problem is remembering to test. My cartridges are lasting for up to
a year, so testing must be disciplined, even though that leaves lots of
slack.
Wright
- --
Wright Huntley, Fremont CA, USA, 510 494-8679 huntley1 at home dot com
Stop passing new laws!
Repeal some disfunctional ones. It will do far more good.
http://www.self-gov.org/libertarianism.html
by Wright Huntley <huntley1/home.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999
To use filters for removing the antibacterial (anti-cholera) agents
introduced by your water service, first get a chlorine test kit. [You can
pay a lot for one at the local fish store (LFS) or get a much larger one for
way less money in the pool dept. at Home Depot o/e. They both use the same
chemicals and color charts.]
Chlorine and chloramine both give positive readings on a normal
color-changing chlorine test. You want a reading of zero, none, or less than
that if possible. <G> *Any* detectable amount should be considered
gill-damaging, even if it does not make the fish gasp at the surface or swim
inverted. That's why I don't do partial water changes right from the tap,
ever.
Reverse Osmosis (RO) filters remove lots of things, but chlorine, chloramine
and ammonia apparently are not among them. Even the cheapest RO units have
extra sediment and activated-carbon filters to get stuff that either would
damage or get through the membrane. In addition, they all have flow
restricters to assure good long contact in the filters or membrane for
efficient removal of unwanted stuff.
RO water is *too* pure for 99.9% of fishkeeping, so a good practice is to
mix hard tap water with dead-soft RO water to get an ideal mix for your kind
of fish. Fortunately, most of us living in North America are sitting over
ancient sea beds. The shells (limestone) in the aquifer make our water good
and hard. Trace minerals needed by fish and plants are also abundant in the
water. [I feel sorry for the poor folks who have water so soft they are
continuously making "chemical soup" to overcome the plant-stunting and
stability problems caused by that lack of the essential minerals.]
The tap water can be slowly trickled through an ordinary big, whole-house
filter (roughly 3"D x10"L ) with an activated-carbon cartridge to remove
chlorine or chloramine. Frequent testing of the output is needed, for the
carbon eventually saturates, allowing chlorine to "punch through." On advice
from my local water engineer (who happens to be trained as a marine
biologist), I use two filters in series, with a tap between. The second
filter catches any "punch through" between tests. I replace it with a new
cartridge if I detect chlorine at the tap between them, and put the replaced
one in place of the worn-out #1 cartridge, for it is essentially still new.
I also have a valve in the incoming line to restrict flow into my storage
barrel (trash container) to a trickle. The swamp-cooler float valve I have
installed near the top also helps by allowing only pretty slow flow, but
keeps the carpet much drier than before. (^_^)
The real key to making filters work is to frequently test the output, until
you know their capacity. Then you can cut back. Weekly tests make no sense
for me, since my tap filter goes for considerably more than 6 months before
needing a change. I use as little RO as possible, so the *three* carbon
filters on it are essentially good for life -- well for a few years, anyway.
;-)
As a final precaution, I add some "Amquel" to my storage barrels, to handle
any ammonia that might still trickle through as the chloramine breaks down
in the filters. I have a huge number of baby fish, and I don't want ammonia
to get above a few parts per billion. As I can't possibly test for that, the
"Amquel" assures me that growth will not be inhibited by low-level
ammonia/ammonium that I otherwise could miss.
I'll finish as I started, by saying you must test, test, test. Filters work
fine, if you do. Different brands have different effectiveness (as we have
heard here, recently) and the expensive ones are often also the poorest.
Test to know.
Wright
PS. Did I mention that you should check your filter output for chlorine? ;-)
PPS. As a matter of standard practice, I use pure tap water whenever
possible, to avoid accidents with osmotic-shock problems. RO is used very
stingily, and only if vital. I therefore can't grow *Glossostigma* worth
diddly. :-)
- --
Wright Huntley, Fremont CA, USA, 510 494-8679 huntleyone at home dot com
"DEMOCRACY" is two wolves and a lamb voting on lunch.
"LIBERTY" is a well-armed lamb denying enforcement of the vote.
*** http://www.self-gov.org/index.html ***
by ac554/freenet.carleton.ca (David Whittaker)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000
Thomas Barr said...
>I have used this one product on Chlorine and now Chloramines for several
>years(15+ years) now. Amquel is in no way harmful to plants nor fish. I have
>had many species of plants and Discus and some other touchy fish over these
>years. Never in any way did I have problem using this product or resulting
>from using it. I do large water changes too(25 to 75% weekly) so if there
>was something going on I would have been and would be now in very big
>trouble!!
I agree that it is a very good product. I use it when treating water
for a tank which is not heavily planted. However, I recently ran into
a couple of drawbacks concerning its use. I used it when setting up a
quarantine tank to house some new acquisitions. When they came down
with ich I increased the temperature and treated with Maracide. The
ich did not diminish during the first four days which is unusual. The
reason finally dawned on me when I remembered adding the Amquel to
sequester the chloramine. The packaging states that Amquel interferes
with dyes such as methylene blue.
About one month ago I lost two tanks of daphnia after replenishing
the cultures with green water from a third aquarium. Again I had
forgotten that the latter tank had been treated with Amquel at
about 1/3 strength. This effect has been discussed recently in
the Live Foods Digest. No proof of course, but it has happenned
once before to me and to several others.
Normally I do up to 75% water changes using sodium thiosulfate.
However, Ottawa water is treated with less than 1 ppm chloramine.
In my heavily planted tanks I doubt that the ammonia released
lasts beyond an hour. It works well for me. I'm sure that locality,
pH, and fish species affect toxicity and YMMV.
- --
Dave Whittaker
Gloucester, Ontario
Canada
ac554@FreeNet.Carleton.ca
by Mark Fisher <Mark.Fisher/tpwd.state.tx.us>
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000
> The neutralizing reaction of the thiosulphate ion with
> chlorine is given by:
>
> 2S2O3-- + Cl2 -----> S4O6-- + 2Cl-
>
> Tap water typically will not have more than 1ppm chlorine at
> the tap, some
> treatment plants aim for 1ppm Cl at the exit of the treatment plant so
> that by the time it reaches your tap, there should still be a
> residual.
Free chlorine gas is not present in chlorinated water. When chlorine gas
is added to water, it reacts to form hypochlorite and hydrochloric acid:
CL2 + H2O --->HOCl + H + Cl
the hypochlorite can further ionize to form:
HOCL <--->H + OCl
"Free residual chlorine" is the usual measure of chlorination effectiveness,
which is the sum of [HOCL] and [OCl]. Many treatment plants have a target
value of 1 ppm free residual chlorine, not simply Cl. I think your
calculations are a bit off.
Furthermore, many municipalities now use chloramine instead of chlorine.
They add ammonia to chlorinated water to form:
HOCl + NH3 <--> NH2Cl (monochloramine) + H2O
HOCl + NH3 <--> NHCL2 (dichloramine) + H2O
HOCl + NH3 <--> NCl3 (nitrogen dichloride) +H2O
These reactions are dependent upon pH, temperature, contact time, and the
initial ratio of chlorine to ammonia, but in most cases the predominant
forms are monochloramine and dichloramine. The chlorine present in these
compounds is called the "combined available chlorine". The addition of
thiosulphate will neutralize the chlorine but will also liberate the
ammonia, which can cause an ammonia spike in our aquaria. Thiosulphate is
not recommended in chloramine-treated water.
Source: Tchobanoglous, G and E. Schroeder. 1985. Water Quality:
Characteristics, Modeling, and Modification. Addison-Wesley.
Regards,
Mark
by "Roger S. Miller" <rgrmill/rt66.com>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000
On Fri, 19 May 2000, Cindy wrote:
> Thanks for the tip about the Morton's Salt Substitute. Would this
> be similar to a garden product called "Muriate of Potash" which
> contains something like 52% potash and 48% Chloride(ine?)? I got
> some of this for $4/2 lbs at the garden store, but I hesitated about
> the chloride in it. I figured I could make a batch with a
> dechlorinator,
Muriate of potash is the same thing as potassium chloride. Chloride must
not be mistaken for chlorine used for disinfection. Chloride is a
typically harmless and ubiquitous ion. Dechlorinators convert chlorine to
chloride to neutralize it. Chloride is actually an essential plant
nutrient, but it is generally present in such large amounts compared to
the plants' need for chloride that there's never a question of it being in
short supply.
Chloride will tend to accumulate over time and very large doses of
potassium chloride (as with any other soluble salt) could produce
conditions that are too saline for some plants.
If your tank also needs additional nitrogen then potassium nitrate is
probably a better choice than potassium chloride because it would have
less tendency to accumulate over time.
Roger Miller
by "Jamie Johnson" <jjohnson/davisfloyd.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000
by SCraig9087/aol.com
> Many "cheap" aquarium products use large amounts of
> sodium thiosulphate to reduce PH thereby converting ammonia to ammonium.
SCraig you may have a little typo here. The cheap aquarium
products use sodium thiosulfate to neutralize chlorine, not
ammonia. Na thiosulfate has a neutral pH in a concentrated
solution (6.5-8.0), so I would expect a 10% or whatever conc. is
used is pretty much around 7. On top of that you only use a couple
drops per gallon. I make a 50% solution and use around
(sometimes) one drop/gallon. I read in Tropical Fish that fish could
live in a 10% solution, which I wouldn't recommend, but I believe it
was mainly stated to show the passiveness of this compund in an
aquarium.
I think most pH reducers sold are phosporic acid based, not
thiosulfate.
> Unfortunately, if your PH goes up the resident ammonium converts back to its
> lethal form. Tropical Science makes a product (Complete Care) which breaks
> the chloramine bond and then converts the released ammonia into ammonium
> di-basic which is not sensitive to changes in PH. I don't know about other
> products, but using straight sodium thiosulphate can be a problem.
I use it liberally, sometimes a splash between water changes. As a
chemist, I'm very concerned about most additives, and am
meticulous about my measuring, so that ought to tell you how
worried I am of the thiosulfate. It's the only thing I don't measure.
I looked all through my literatures at work and cannot find an
ammonia use for sodium thiosulfate, but here's the cool
mechanism for the chlorine conversion:
Na2S2O3+4Cl2+5H2O = 2NaHSO4+8HCl and NaS2O3+2HCl =
2NaCl+H2O+S+SO2
It's also an antidote to cyanide. I guess it's good for heartburn from
eating too much cyanide. Talk about heartburn....
Jamie <"\\\><
by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000
To: John Farrell Kuhns <JFK/compuserve.com>,
John,
Thank you for correcting the info I had on AmQuel.
I had to go back and find
the message (part attached):
"AmQuel also uses Sodium Thiosulfate to break the
chlorine/ammonia bond in
chloramines. The ammonia is then bonded to a
colloid of some sort. At least
that's
what their reps have told me in the past."
Please note the last sentence. This is a prime
example of the GIGO principle
(Garbage in, garbage out). You see, 8 - 10 years
ago I was a sales
representative for Pendleton Enterprises, a
wholesale pet supply dealer here in
Denver and Salt Lake City. I had always been
curious why AmQuel-treated water
gave anomalously high readings on simple Nesslar
reagent ammonia tests as opposed
to more complex tests like Tetra's. So at an open
house with Kordon's reps
there, I asked them how it worked. They told me
that it used dechorinator
(which to me is Sodium Thiosulfate - I stand
corrected) to remove the chlorine
and a special ingredient that formed a colloid
with the freed ammonia that was
too big to cross the gill membranes, enter the
blood stream, and poison the
fish. The ammonia is still in the water in a
non-toxic form. This is why
Nesslar reagent tests, which don't discriminate
between free ammonia and amine
compounds will register high ammonia contents,
while other more complex ammonia
kits that read only free ammonia do not.
It seems that the problem here is Kordon's
training practices. If you can't
believe the manufacturer's reps who do you trust??
I have posted this message
with the Apisto Mailing List as you requested.
(See the bottom of this message
for info in the apisto list.) I hope this helps.
BTW I use AmQuel whenever I set up a new tank with
100% raw tap water,
just to remove high concentrations of ammonia that
form once the water is
dechlorinated. I have part of a 1 gallon jug that
is well over 5 years old. Can
you tell me if AmQuel has an effective shelf life?
Also is there any need to
use a dechlorinator with AmQuel as Kordon
recommends, or is this a way to sell
more Novaqua?
Mike Wise
John Farrell Kuhns wrote:
> Mike:
>
> I read a message threat on thekrib.com. In one message in the
> thread you make the authoritative statement that there is sodium
> thiosulfate in AmQuel. This is 100% incorrect! There is no thiosulfate of
> any kind in AmQuel, Dry Buffered AmQuel, Pure Dry AmQuel or the other
> products covered by my patent (#4,666,610). Instead, there is sodium
> hydroxymethanesulfonate, a unique compound that no ther manufacturer uses
> (legally) in aquarium water conditioners. That compound reacts directly
> with chlorine (hypochlorites), chloramines and free ammonia. With ammonia
> it combinds with the ammonia to form a stable amine compound that is not
> toxic to plants, invertebrates nor fishes. It does not reacxt to form
> ammonium, NH4+, as some uninformed aquarists have suggested.
> Your original message was posted on an _Apistogramma_ L-list on the
> internet. How do I go about getting onto that list so I can correct this
> error? Perhaps you can assist me in correcting this error; if so I would
> be grateful.
> I am writing a new aquarium book, and such threads, and how they
> develop, will make a useful illustration in the book of how uninformed
> opinions get out of hand on the unedited internet.
>
> ==JFK==
> "Fishman Jack"
> John Farrell Kuhns
> bus. web site: http://AquaScienceResearch.com
> pers. web site: http://www.sound.net/~jfk
by Greg Morin <greg/seachem.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001
>chloramine? Does "Prime" cover chloramine as well?
yes, it removes chloramine.
> What about products that claim to "break the chloramine bond"?
>Isn't that like adding ammonia to the tank?
No, breaking the "chloramine bond" converts chloramine into ammonia
and chlorine, but then Prime reduces the chlorine to chloride and
complexes with the ammonia, thereby "removing" the ammonia. The
plants or bacteria eventually remove this ammonia-Prime however, so
you don't need to worry about this building up.
- -Greg Morin
- --
Gregory Morin, Ph.D. ~~~~~~~Research Director~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seachem Laboratories, Inc. www.seachem.com 888-SEACHEM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Krib
Chemistry
The Krib