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Apistogramma/Dwarf Cichlids
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The Krib
Apistogramma/Dwarf Cichlids
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Steve wrote: > I know this is unheard of, but has anybody else ever heard of sex changes > in apistos? I'm asking because I have a pair of Apisto nijsenni that I've > had for about a year and a half. When they were younger I got a number of > viable spawns from them. However, in the last few months the female has > put on quite a growth spurt, to the point where she now approaches the size > of the male (almost 2 and 1/4 inches), and her coloring has changed too! > She has a lot more blue on her and the black spot mid body is almost > nonexistant. The large spots on the gills are narrowed down to lines also. > Another thing that I've noticed only recently is the fact that they are > displaying to eachother like two males, inverted angled posturing while > flaring gills! If everybody thinks I'm whacko I'll understand, but I think > this is very strange. Any input would be appreciated! > > STeve One of the Apisto keepers in my area, Ken Nordby, observed a sex reversal in nijsseni. I believe the male died and one of the the two remaining females changed into a male. I got some of the subsequent offspring. Perhaps this is something characteristic to nijsseni (or the complex) instead of to all Apistos. At least it's interesting that both of these experiences involved nijsseni. --Randy ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
I got another response from someone else on the list who had a similar experience, also with nijsseni! I think this is very interesting. It is certaintly nothing I have ever seen in other apistos. I wonder if pandurini will see similar observations when we have kept it for a while? At 05:30 PM 3/16/98 -0600, you wrote: >Steve wrote: > >> I know this is unheard of, but has anybody else ever heard of sex changes >> in apistos? I'm asking because I have a pair of Apisto nijsenni that I've >> had for about a year and a half. When they were younger I got a number of >> viable spawns from them. However, in the last few months the female has >> put on quite a growth spurt, to the point where she now approaches the size >> of the male (almost 2 and 1/4 inches), and her coloring has changed too! >> She has a lot more blue on her and the black spot mid body is almost >> nonexistant. The large spots on the gills are narrowed down to lines also. >> Another thing that I've noticed only recently is the fact that they are >> displaying to eachother like two males, inverted angled posturing while >> flaring gills! If everybody thinks I'm whacko I'll understand, but I think >> this is very strange. Any input would be appreciated! >> >> STeve > >One of the Apisto keepers in my area, Ken Nordby, observed a sex reversal in >nijsseni. I believe the male died and one of the the two remaining females >changed into a male. I got some of the subsequent offspring. > >Perhaps this is something characteristic to nijsseni (or the complex) instead of >to all Apistos. At least it's interesting that both of these experiences >involved nijsseni. > >--Randy > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. >For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, >email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. >Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Yes, that was exactly my point. The pair had spawned repeatedly when they were younger, and had _many_ batches of viable fry. That is why I'm wondering about the change. I've been dealing with sleeper males since I started this hobby, and this is definitley not the case this time. Steve At 11:27 AM 3/17/98 +0100, you wrote: >Hi Ken and all, > >Ken Laidlaw wrote: >> >> > One of the Apisto keepers in my area, Ken Nordby, observed a sex reversal in >> > nijsseni. I believe the male died and one of the the two remaining females >> > changed into a male. I got some of the subsequent offspring. >> >> Hi, >> >> Is it possible that the 'female' was in fact a sneak male. >> I have read and seen to some extent that males will stay >> looking like females in the presence in a dominant male. >> >> One example being my friend's pair of A. sp tucurui, the >> smaller fish looked like a female for a few months but when >> the large male died the smaller fish suddenly increased in >> size and it's fins lenghtened. >> >> I'd agree that with the large sexual dimorphism/chromatism >> in A.nijsseni it is less likely for a male to look like a >> female. >> >> Ken. >> >> >this was my first idea, too. But didn't anybody say he/she spawned? When it was >a sneak male he couldn't spawn?! Or could he/she? > >best regards >Wilfred > > >************************************** > Wilfred Teiser - Germany > PHOENIX CONSULTING >software - aquaristic - filters - food > phoenix1-at-t-online.de > http://home.t-online.de/home/phoenix1 >*************************************** > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. >For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, >email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. >Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Jason, Yes, there are reports of apistos changing sex, but only a very few are true changes. Your fish sound like you got a juvenile male and a mature male. The interest your mature male showed to the other was probably more territorial aggression than spawning interest. Domestic juvenile male aggies usually don't start developing their lanceolate tail fin until they are 1 1/2 to 2 inches long. True sex changes require that the female spawn successfully and raise fry (no other females in the tank) and then change to a male and breed with a female (no other males in the tank) who successfully raises fry. To be absolutely sure, no other but the pair should be in the tank at the same time. Otherwise sneaker males, that look like females, might be the actual father, not the supposed female-changed-male. Koslowski, in his book Die Buntbarsche der Neuen Welt - Zwergcichliden, reports that a female A. sp. Wangenflecken spawned and raised several broods and then slowly changed to a male. As a male, it was put in with a single female who then raised fry. Mayalauren-at-aol.com wrote: > Hello all > a few months ago I bought a pair of Aggies.At least I thought they were a > pair. > the male was very interestd in the female for quite a while but nothing came > of it. > Consequently the male started to change colour-losing his red caudal and > getting an overall body colour I can only describe as opal.His ventrals grew > very long. I figured old age. > Anyways,the "female" has since grown a nice lanceolate caudal (it was rounded > till she was just under 1.5") and has grown a good 50%. Is this typical sub- > dominant male behaviour? Or can females change into males as in other species? > ???? Jason > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. > For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, > email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. > Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Hi everyone, I just got bizarre experience with sex change in A.cruzi.. Of many fry i got from my trio, most were males, females I got i gave to friends, and shop refused to take the rest because they want of course pairs. Now I stuck with 2 tanks loaded with fry. One had about 20 males, second had just too small fry to tell. Well, now the story. 3 weeks ago I was rearranging my tanks and decided to dump several A.cruzi males in the show tank there I intended to breed A. steinachneri.. Just for bioload or diters.. I put 5 of them, about 1 to 1 1/3 inch long, 4-5 month old males.. Well, now they ALL turned females. Black ventrals, round dorsal, yellow color.. I put in their father.. they spawned today.. I know I had some problems with sex determination before, but about a month before rearrangement of tanks, Kathy was here.. She took the last female I had in that tank and may share her impressions about the rest of fishies in the tank - they WERE males, and the rest still ARE. I can not think of any differences between two tanks - both are RO water filled, and I may take some more pains to clean the show tank. Only point is - show tank has a regulated +29 C (84F), the other tank fluctuates with RT (I turn off conditioner going to work, so it can be significant some times). As a supportive note, I transferred third of small fry from another unheated tank to regulated one and they all appear females to me, but still too small. Here are only 2-4 females in two-third remaining at room temperature (40-50 or so fishes). Appear quite strange to me they can do it so late in life... But come see them females.. BTW, if someone wants a breeding pair.. or some juveniles.. I will exchange them for any apisto I do not have (I have cruzi and steindachneri). I am in Houston, TX. Happy New Year and Merry Christmas! Lilia ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Has anybody had these change sex on them. I have and another fellow around here did too. Or can a young male (6months or so) imitate the yellow and the black blotches of the female or vise versa? Any one have this happen or ever hear of it? Tim Ken Laidlaw wrote: > Knee-sen- eye > or > Ni-sen-eye? > > Ken. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com. > For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, > email apisto-request@majordomo.pobox.com. > Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Thanks for the posts on this thread. seems,to be conflicting opinoins. Just for the record here is the story up till now. I purchased one male and two females of six fish that came in, the other three were one male and two females. I placed my trio in a twenty long with the usual stuff (wood, plants, rocks, etc.) The male paired with the biggest female and beat the other female so that I moved her out. I let the pair court and pull brood colors but no fry. So I swapped the females and waited. Still no fry. So then I moved the trio to a seventy tank and within two days I had two very blue males and one female. When I talked to the lfs about it he said the other trio had come back as three females. (Which I quickly picked up) and now I have a male in the seventy courting two females and ignoring the third one and a pair in a twenty long. I am gonna really watch these guys and I will let yall know if anything else strange happens. Thanks again. Tim Helen Burns wrote: > Steph, > I knew I would probably be wrong, Ted Judy article proves this. At least I > was right on the sneaker male part. > Thanks, Helen > From: Steph & Dave <caligula@tig.com.au> > > >There is an article at http://www2.cichlidae.com/cichlidroom/ that > >details the sex change of a dominant female D. filamentosa to male when > >the only male in the tank removed itself. > >Steph > > > >Helen Burns wrote: > >> As far as I am aware there is only one cichlid species which will change > sex > >> and that is Crenicara punctulata, > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com. > For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, > email apisto-request@majordomo.pobox.com. > Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
A few months ago I had a similar dilemma with A.nijsseni. I bought a beautifully coloured male and a bright yellow fish I thought was female. It did not have much black colouration but as it was so yellow I thought it must be female. Once transferred to home it gradually became more male looking and in the end blue. I'd say look for the obvious black blotches on the operculum etc for a sure fire female, not the ground colour alone. Helen kindly located a female for me, now after about six spawnings and various water conditions still no fry, very frustrating. Ken.
Gary, I'm not surprised. It seems that Ohm's results on sex change in C. punctulatum has not been verified by later studies attempting to replicate his own. Some researchers have observed sex changes while most have not. As Randy said you can only prove sex change has occurred if you see a female lay eggs and raise fry. Then later the same fish must fertilize another fish's eggs and they must be viable. If this doesn't occur then your "female-turned-male" is probably a genetic male who retained its juvenile (similar to female) features to avoid conflicts with territorial males. After reading the referenced article, I must agree with Randy statement. It appears to be a case of the latter. This doesn't mean that it can't happen. Koslowski had a female Wangenflecken Apisto raise several broods, then change to a male and then fertilize a viable clutch of eggs. Not all Wangenflecken do this. This is an exception - just like Ginny Eckstein's "mated pair" of Caquetia splendida. It was the only fish in a tank and it laid, fertilized, and raised a batch of fry by itself! Mother Nature can pull some tricks on us. Mike Wise Frauley/Elson wrote: > When I kept punctulatum, i started with four young females and finished > with four old females... > Gary > > Randy & Deb Carey wrote: > > > > I agree with you, Mike. I don't think the fish change sex, but I think some males > > (in crowded conditions) defer the more noticable male marking when there are > > dominant males present. Thus pulling a dominant male seems to give these "hidden" > > males the "incentive" to fill out their male appearance. And I'm not even saying > > that the "hidden" males are indistinguishable from the females, just that they look > > more like the females than they look like the dominant males. > > > > There was a time that I had 9 wild-caught females and lost my only male. Noine of > > the females developed into males. I had to buy more maculatus before I got a male. > > > > --Randy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. > For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, > email apisto-request@listbox.com. > Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
The only report on sex reversals in apistos that wasn't anecdotal is found in Koslowski's book. He reports that he had a female Wangenflecken Apisto that spawned several times and produced young. Then over a few months time it changed to look like a male. He/she was placed in a tank with a female that had spawned previously with another male. When placed in a tank with a female, this male spawned with the female and she raised young. Most other reports don't have sufficient controls to verify that the once "female" wasn't actually a sneaker male. I once had a Rotpunkt sneaker male that would color up just like a brooding female and guard fry for a while side by side with the mother. At first I thought that it was joint brood care by two females. I was wrong. Mike Wise swaldron@slip.net wrote: > Anything to sex > change in apistos? I think there is an anecdotal reference in Schmettkamp. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. > For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, > email apisto-request@listbox.com. > Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Hi I met a lady when I was judging a show for the Peoria, IL club who had a pair of A. agassizi which produced babies and the male died. It took her a while to find more and the four she found were very young and unsexable. She had them with the much larger female who eventually changed into a functional male who bred with one of what turned out to be 4 small females. She did write an article on her experience for their publication. Since she was working with so few fish so as to be sure she didn't mix them up; she convinced me. Tom Wojtech ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
The only report on sex reversals in apistos that wasn't anecdotal is found in Koslowski's book. He reports that he had a female Wangenflecken Apisto that spawned several times and produced young. Then over a few months time it changed to look like a male. He/she was placed in a tank with a female that had spawned previously with another male. When placed in a tank with a female, this male spawned with the female and she raised young. Most other reports don't have sufficient controls to verify that the once "female" wasn't actually a sneaker male. I once had a Rotpunkt sneaker male that would color up just like a brooding female and guard fry for a while side by side with the mother. At first I thought that it was joint brood care by two females. I was wrong. Mike Wise swaldron@slip.net wrote: > Anything to sex > change in apistos? I think there is an anecdotal reference in Schmettkamp. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. > For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, > email apisto-request@listbox.com. > Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Hi I met a lady when I was judging a show for the Peoria, IL club who had a pair of A. agassizi which produced babies and the male died. It took her a while to find more and the four she found were very young and unsexable. She had them with the much larger female who eventually changed into a functional male who bred with one of what turned out to be 4 small females. She did write an article on her experience for their publication. Since she was working with so few fish so as to be sure she didn't mix them up; she convinced me. Tom Wojtech ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Brian Skidmore of Tampa, Florida had a breeding pair of borelli where one of the fish (dont remember which one), after the death of its mate changed sex and reproduced again as a member of the opposite sex. He wrote an elaborate article about it in the local journal.
Vinny
Tom Wojtech wrote: I met a lady when I was judging a show for the Peoria, IL club who had a pair of A. agassizi which produced babies and the male died. It took her a while to find more and the four she found were very young and unsexable. She had them with the much larger female who eventually changed into a functional male who bred with one of what turned out to be 4 small females. She did write an article on her experience for their publication. Since she was working with so few fish so as to be sure she didn't mix them up; she convinced me. Tom Wojtech
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This page was last updated 02 July 2000 | ||