The Krib
Apistogramma/Dwarf Cichlids
|
The Krib
Apistogramma/Dwarf Cichlids
|
[E-mail] | |
| |||
| |||
In article <1992Oct6.012922.26844-at-mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> mhatz-at-nyx.cs.du.edu (Mike Hatz) writes: >I the group's collective advice and got 4 Ram cichlids for my little 10 gallon >this weekend. I do have 2 questions though: 4 adult rams in a 10 may be a bit too tight unless you have a lot of plants in the tank. >1) What is the most accurate way to sex them? I am looking at their little >"punk" hairdos and the eye bars. The mature males will have very extended first few rays of the dorsal. The mature females will be smaller than males and their bellies turn deep red when they are in the spawning mood. >2) Any tips to get them to breed? Get at least 1 male and at least one female. Put them in a tank with a flat large pebble or a piece of slate and feed them plenty of live foods. They will spawn. -- Oleg Kiselev at home ...use the header to find the path
In article <32vs55$l06-at-usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> dxf6-at-po.CWRU.Edu (Dean Fear) writes: > Rams are very easy to maintain. If you are lucky enough to find good quality specimans. After going through some 25 specimens in the last year, I can assure you good ones are the exception. But once you find them... I just transported mine 800 miles in a rubbermade tub, and one pair was itching to spawn when they got here. Go figure. > each sex. Sexing rams is not difficult as they do show a > reasonable amount of sexual dimorphism. I would disagree. If you get good quality specimans, they might be easy to sex. But I've had some that I could only sex after watching them spawn. > About 150 eggs are > laid on a flat surface which can be a nicely removable piece of > slate or more annoyingly the bottom of the tank itself. My current pair seem to prefer digging a pit in the gravel to the "smooth brown stone" most books recommend. -- narten-at-cs.duke.edu
In article <NARTEN.94Aug18131131-at-tmp144.cs.duke.edu> narten-at-cs.duke.edu (Thomas Narten) writes: >In article <32vs55$l06-at-usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> dxf6-at-po.CWRU.Edu (Dean Fear) writes: >> Rams are very easy to maintain. > >If you are lucky enough to find good quality specimans. After going >through some 25 specimens in the last year, I can assure you good ones >are the exception. But once you find them... I just transported mine >800 miles in a rubbermade tub, and one pair was itching to spawn when >they got here. Go figure. I've got to agree with Thomas Narten here. Many Rams, especially those of Far Eastern origin, drop over for no apparent reason. This happens even after they have been in a tank and doing fine for a couple of months. (I'd also disagree with Dean Fear's statement that most Rams are today bred in Florida. If I'm not mistaken, they're mostly bred in the Far East.) >> Sexing rams is not difficult as they do show a >> reasonable amount of sexual dimorphism. > >I would disagree. If you get good quality specimans, they might be >easy to sex. But I've had some that I could only sex after watching >them spawn. I too have got to disagree with Dean Fear. The traits he lists for sexing Rams, such as anterior dorsal fin spine length, only work in some instances. I've seen pairs in which these traits (and another commonly used trait -- the presense or absense of blue flank spots) did not apply. >> About 150 eggs are >> laid on a flat surface which can be a nicely removable piece of >> slate or more annoyingly the bottom of the tank itself. > >My current pair seem to prefer digging a pit in the gravel to the >"smooth brown stone" most books recommend. I've seen Far Eastern Rams breeding in pits in preference to on stones, and German Rams doing just the opposite, but I've not observed enough pairs of either to say with any confidence that there is a correlation there. >-- >narten-at-cs.duke.edu Some other comments on Dean Fear's article (which, btw, was in general a quite good article): >>(Microgeophagus Ramirezi). Or Papiliochromis ramirezi. (I think Papiliochromis will be the name to win out in the long run.) Or Apistogramma ramirezi, for people with outdated books. >>It reminds one, in appearance as well as >>personality, of a cross between a Geophagus and a "mickey mouse" >>platy. While they are *very* distantly related to platys, Rams remind you of Geophagus for a good reason, they're Geophagines. >>(Interestingly enough the >>battles tend to be with fish of the same sex and the opposition's >>mate is generally ignored.) There is a perfectly good evolutionary reason for this: If you chase away (or injure) the fish of your same sex in the other pair, you are left with another potential mate. If, on the other hand, you chase away (or injure) the fish of the opposite sex in the other pair, you are left with a potential competator for your own mate. >>My next project in the world of dwarf cichlids is breeding the >>Bolivian Ram (Microgeophagus Altispinosa). Hopefully, my >>experience with M. ramirezi should help me succeed in this >>endeavor. Good luck. It still should be possible to find good quality specimens of M. altispinosa, but the Far East is getting in to the act and driving down the quality here too. I used to heartily recommend Bolivian Rams to people interested in keeping and breeding Rams but who were unable to find good quality fish. Now I do it with trepidation. Btw, has anyone else noticed that there seem to be two regional varieties of M. altispinosa -- a larger, less colorful morph and a smaller, more colorful one? I say morphs or regional varieties, rather than aquarium strains, as I first noticed this several years ago before they had been in the hobby long and before commercial breeders had had time to mess up the stocks. Dean Hougen, cichlidiot -- "Little tanks, no bigger than your thumb." - Oingo Boingo
In article <phenders-060994075034-at-mac.bohs.brea.k12.ca.us> phenders-at-kn.pacbell.com (Phil Henderson) writes: > Finally I asked a guy who breeds Discus and angels commercially and for > show and also runs a small fish store. He said he didn't carry Rams anymore > and here was his reason. He said that the Rams bred in South-east Asia were > bred in very soft water. Putting them in the harder water water here made > them very susceptible to a gill disease that wasn't apparent in its early > stages but once it became apparent it was untreatable. What this doesn't explain is that once I've had a Ram for a month or two, its long-term prognosis is very good. I've got Rams that I've now had for 9 months. Had the chance to speak with Paul Loiselle over the weekend. Of course, I had to ask about Rams. He said that pretty much all Rams come from the far east. (BTW, this includes the so-called "German" Rams, which are called "Singapore" Rams in Europe.) Rams seem susceptible to and/or frequently carry intestinal bacterial(?) parasites, which often causes them to appear healthy and then suddenly die. He suggested feeding them an antibacterial food for a week or so immediately upon getting them to clean out their systems. -- narten-at-cs.duke.edu
hlg9681-at-uxa.cso.uiuc.edu () wrote:
>
> I recently bought 4 rams for my 20 gallon high aquarium. They
> seem healthy and active, and the water conditions are right for
> them (pH 6.6, no ammonia or nitrite). The problem is that they
> seem not to eat at all. They spit out every food that I've tried
> (flakes, pellets, freeze-dried tubifex, frozen brine shrimp). Do
> I need to go to live foods? The only live foods in my are pet shops
> are blackworms. By the way, I've had the rams for only 4 days.
>
4 rams may be a lot for a 20 gallon.
If they have any feces, is it a clearish-white, stringy stuff? If so,
they may have hexamita. This is very common among rams. I've read
that Clout can eliminate the parasite if you can get them to eat anti-
parasitic food.
My rams often grab and then spit out the food I feed them. They
chew on it a little while it is in their mouths, then spit it out
and try to go for a smaller piece. I think this is normal. The
problem occurs when more aggressive eaters snatch up the food that
my rams have so graciously chewed up already.
I've been most successful with Discus Formula as a food for my rams.
They also like warm water (84 - 85 F).
Hope this helps,
---------------------------------------------------------
David W. Webb
dwebb-at-ti.com
Any correlation between my opinions and those of Texas
Instruments is purely coincidental. (I don't speak for
TI)
---------------------------------------------------------
koolkid-at-cac.washington.edu (Timothy F. Lee {UCS}) wrote:
>I am fairly new to the the idea of breeding tropical fish. Since Rams are
>by-far my most favorite of tropical fish, I was wondering how easy would it
>be to breed Rams. Also, is there anyone who can help me with setting up
>the necessary conditions for breeding Rams. One other note, how do I tell
>a female Ram from a male Ram? I am refering to Rams in general.
>Thanks...
>--tim
>-------------------------------------------
I've had good success spawning Blue Rams. I have two pair that spawn
like clockwork each 19 days. Each individual was purchased at
different times and at different stores .
The main thing is to get good healthy stock to begin with. *All* Rams
I've seen in stores are usually in very bad condition. Pick out the
best looking then feed them a variety of foods, including a variety of
live foods. Feed often in small quantities. Rams are very shy so you
should include a small school of Tetras in the tank. The Tetras are
faster so be careful that the Rams are getting enough.
Female Rams have a red or pinkish belly and the tip of the dorsal fin
nearest the tail is slightly rounded. The tip of the male dorsal fin
is distinctly pointed. The difference is very slight so you'll have
to study carefully.
Water I use is neutral pH and soft (60ppm) obtained by mixing RO water
(from a local drinking water vender) mixed with tap water (60% RO, 40%
tap in my case). I change 25% weekly. When the Rams are in good
health I adjust the temperature of the change water so that it's 2-3
degrees *cooler* than the tank water.
Rams spawn on flat rocks so include several in each tank. I found it
best to place a small plastic plant in front of each flat rock so that
the Rams feel more secure. After spawning I usually remove the eggs
to hatch and rear separately.
As with Angels and Discus, etc., the key is good health, live food,
and frequent water changes.
Hope this helps...
Russ
In article <LSARAKON.95Jul22211054-at-delta.hut.fi>, Liisa Sarakontu <lsarakon-at-snakemail.hut.fi> wrote: >Papiliochromis should be the right name, and it is always used here in >Europe. Americans often use Microgeophagus. I can't remember the whole >story but it was something like this: Ram was first named as Apistogramma. >Later TFH invented name Microgeophagus in one article, and about the same >time Ram was redescribed and renamed as Papiliochromis in Europe (Germany?). >TFH and Axelrod still claim that their name is valid. > >Liisa Sarakontu I won't go into all the details, unless somebody is truly interested, but I will say that Liisa is essentially right with two exceptions: 1) Kullander (a Swede, not a German) erected Papiliochromis well after Axelrod used the name Microgeophagus and was well aware of Axelrod's use of it. He believed (and I agree) that Axelrod's use of it did not constitute a proper establishment of a generic name. 2) The correct generic name is Mikrogeophagus. That's right, with a 'k'. I know you haven't seen it in any of the books. You will. Dean Hougen, cichlidiot -- "That name does not exist in any language." - Talking Heads
Hi everyone, Before I evicted my German Rams to make room for more apistos, I had several pairs in a 40 gal tank, and I did manage to raise up some fry. The tank itself was heavily planted, with driftwood and clay tiles for the fish to spawn upon. I tried to keep the hardness between 20-30ppm by mixing tap water with RO water. I kept the pH between 5-5.5 using a non- phosphorus-containing acid buffer (Kent pH minus). To keep the pH at safe levels, though, I would do many water changes with water of a slightly higher pH than this, and I used my handheld pH meter rigorously! Wright is probably correct about the advantages of peat-I have bags at home, but I'm just too lazy to boil the stuff. (Yeah, but I'll do all that pH-ing. Sigh). Instead, I have been using Blackwater Extract. In regards to whether or not Kevin has a pair, I think that Wright's description was correct: my females had shorter anterior dorsal rays and also had pronounced pink bellies compared to the males. In my case, the females were also substantially smaller than the males (3-4 cm vs. 7-8 cm or so). One of the biggest problems that I had was that my German Rams were kinda stupid. None of my various pairings ever learned how to care for the fry, so I was forced to raise the eggs myself. I believe that Golden Rams are also an aquarium strain, so Kevin might have the same problem. Raising the fry had its own set of problems, too, and I wasn't ever too successful. I would put the eggs (and whatever they were laid on) into a tupperware container that I floated in the same tank as the parents. These containers had openings for water flow covered with netting, and I would let part of the outflow of a sponge filter fall into the container. The times I had success were when this container was disgusting and filled with gunk and algae. The tiny fry may have been eating some of the Liquifry I was feeding them, but I think they mostly ate whatever other little beasties were being cultured in the gross container. When I tried raising fry in clean, new containers on Liquifry alone, I would lose them. I did'nt try APR, so maybe that would work better. Within a few days the fry can eat baby brine. (There is a very knowledgeable aquarist in England who did a very detailedanalysis of this phenomenon and sent it to "he to whom I am married"; he found that his Ram fry never touched Liquifry itself, but that the Liquifry was a good thing to add to a "fry container"(floating margarine cups, in this case) because it stimulated bacterial growth, which the fry would eat.). I learned this a little too late. Ummm, so there. I seem to have gotten a little carried away. May as well start a thread while I'm here: How many times do most of you let your females spawn unsuccessfully before removing the eggs or fry? For example, I have several young females that started off doing a poor job of fry- rearing. For example, my N. anomala has laid 4 clutches of eggs and only had fry once, which she then abandonded after several days. The same happened to my A. borelli. So far, I just let them keep trying, but I would like to know what others do in these situations. Thanks, Lisa wrisch-at-mendel.berkeley.edu
AFAIK, its Pappilochromis with the change still pending -- that is most people are using Pappilochromis (Which I'm probably misspelling) but it hasn't been made official yet, but probably will be..... Anyhow, onto breeding them. Rams are notoriously difficult to breed -- for mostly one reason. Many of our stocks come in from the East, where they don't have any problem with using various hormones. Males are more colourful, so they make more of them...... Hence, 90% of our stock in the country is all males, unless you are lucky enough to get WC or stock from someone localy (I don't know about the German Rams... I assume they've been spaired the treatment of hormones?) you are not going to be able to breed them. For a better shot, go with P. altispinosa, [hey, I can't spell didly skwat] the Bolivian or Ruby Ram. It gets a little larger, and is a lot easier to breed, mostly because you can get females... :-)> <>< J. L. Wiegert
I have had one experience with the Rams. I had 2 pair in a 20 gallon tank on the bottom of a three tier tank. One pair had a 'house' in the back of the tank and the other (the one that spawned) had a 'house' at the front of the tank. They also had no light to speak of except for what came in the window. One day when I was checking tanks to do water changes (which hadn't been done for 2 weeks) I noticed the pair had free swimming fry with them. Once I saw them thought I left a light on over their tank and the next day all the fry were gone. My pH was 7.2 and hardness was 5. Once I moved the pair to their own tank and kept an eye on the tank for future spawnings, I had none. I just lucked out that one time. Kaycy ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
> I'd be surprized if in a town the size of Chicago you had to hunt hard to find > rams in a pet shop. They are regulars at chains like Petsmart, Petco, and > Walmart. Yes, but can you get females? Most pet stores sell Rams from the far east which are exclusivley males. Ken. ***************************** Ken Laidlaw Royal Observatory, Edinburgh Web: http://www.roe.ac.uk ***************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Mark Westling wrote: > > Since rams are one of those mass-produced fish you see in nearly every fish > store, I'm guessing that in the strains we see there hasn't been any > selection for good parenthood characteristics in years. Has anyone ever > run across wild caught rams? > > --Mark > Hi I had a nice group of wild rams (til the tedious ice storm - they died of its after-effects yesterday...). I hadn't spawned them yet, but the main observation I can pass on is they were way more territorial and aggressive than any selected forms I've kept. They were downright cichlid-like. I was expecting fierce broodcare, based on their rowdy territorial defence against all comers. My old German blue rams were territorial, but not like my wilds. I was surprised by their behaviour - it was like having a different species. They were more like Biotodomo cupido than traditional pet-shop rams. -Gary ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
> HI all > > Since I am also trying to breed Rams, I would like to ask if the male should > be removed after the spawning which seems to be the advice for Apistos? > Thanks, > Leo Male and female Rams are both active in the care of eggs and fry so leave both in the tank unless you feel one of the fish has too great a taste for the eggs, not necessarily the male though. There is some debate over removing male Apistos after spawning. In my experience I have only ever had one successful spawning with the male left in the tank. Perhaps if the tank is big enough leaving the male in makes no difference. I use small tanks (18x10x10). Ken. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
>How do you sex Blue Rams? Female blue rams have flourescent blues specks in the black spot in the middle of their bodies. Females also get some color in the belly area when they are very ripe (ready to breed)--similar to the area where female convict cichlids get some color (sorry I couldn't tell you what color, I'm partially color-blind). ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Hi, I'd say the specks on the black body spot is the most obvious difference also. On each side of the spot are a vertical gold band which the males do not have. Hope you have success, I've spawned Rams a few times but they have always eaten the eggs. They seem to have a very short life as well, or perhaps I just cannot look after them properly. Ken. > >How do you sex Blue Rams? > > Female blue rams have flourescent blues specks in the black spot in the > middle of their bodies. Females also get some color in the belly area > when they are very ripe (ready to breed ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Hello Tsuh Yang Chen and Rich, 'Blue rams' can be sexed using a variety of characteristics. The males are generally larger (most prominent in adults), have slightly longer fins (dorsal) and lack the blue spangles in the black mid-lateral spot found in the females. Wild fish are very easy to distingush, but the cultured varieties may be a little harder, assuming both sexes are present. If I were asked for one reliable difference, I would say the blue spangles within the black mid-lateral blotch is the best method (it also works on young fish and the cultured varieties). As for the Bolivian rams, the differences are more subtle. Males generally have longer extensions on the upper and lower rays of the caudal fin, however, this works only for adults and some of the cultured stock may sport these extensions in both sexes. Perhaps the most reliable way of getting both sexes, is to pick out shorter, more 'stocky' fish as well as some more elongate ones. The short and stocky ones would be the females. Extra fish are relatively easy to surplus. Hope this helps. Lee Newman (Vancouver) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
>but actually never even heard about them being able to rise the youngs. > >I have once by a contributor to this list, Helen. Perhaps she can enlighten you. Yes, my pair of Rams successfully bred and reared their young in a 5 (imperial gallon) "species" tank with no intervention from myself. I found them to be excellent parents, in fact the fry remained with the parents until they were off newlly hatched brine shrimp and microworm culture which was at 6 weeks of age. At eight weeks the fry were removed to a rearing tank where they flourished. Approximately 150 were raised to adulthood. The parents then spawned again with the same success. May I add that Ram fry were initially the slowest growing Dwarf fry that I have had success with. What I am noticing with the incomming mail is the speed at which advice is given to remove spawns from parents. I totally disagree with this and something I have never done. I have in the past 4 years successfully (my Apistos have) bred and reared 19 different species without interference. If you have to house pairs in a community tank the chances are that they will indeed spawn, leave well alone and if the fry are are eaten prepare a "species" tank and then transfer the pair to that and leave them in peace to do the "business". Helen ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Hi, recently I had a lot of problems with my rams spawns, but I think I figured out the best way and have now about 300+ fry and 3 females wishing to spawn with the same male again. The most important things as I figured out are Take them to their own tank. The best size is 2.5 g to 5g. Tested BAD choices are leaving them in the same tank using a plastic box floating in the big tank using 'fry net' in the big tank Make waterchanges 50% every day. Skiping even once can lead to fry death (all of the fry). I do changes with pure RO water LOTS of food. Before I started infusoria culture, I could rise only several fry from a spawn (200-300 eggs), now 100% of fry survives Remove rotten eggs twice a day, it is better then using methyl blue, since methyl does not prevent rot of unfertilized eggs, I am not using it at all now with greater success. Conditions (temperature, pH) should be very stable. Nothing can guarantee success unless you have the right pair. The problem of male infertility is real. I made experiments side by side and out of 3 males only one was fertile, and out of 3 females all were fertile but in different degrees (from 20% to 100% of eggs hatched after fertilization with the best male) Best wishes! I found my attempts to rise the fry very challenging and now wonder if the city will be able to absorb that many blue rams to come soon! Lilia On Thu, 4 Jun 1998 SirTrust-at-aol.com wrote: > My pair of Blue Rams(papliochromis ramirezi) spawned last night on one > of several flat brown rocks I have scattered through out my tank. The parents > are zealously guarding the eggs right now. I would appreciate any information > on how best to raise this spawn. Should I remove the eggs to another tank or > will they be ok where they are? I have a 55 gallon tank > It houses two pairs > of rams , a pleco and about 15 neons. It is also well planted with live > plants. Your help would greatly be appreciated . > > > Thanks, > > Paul > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. > For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, > email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. > Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Hi Simone, > > Thanks Kaycy, thanks Lee and tanks Lilia, for your answers, I tried to > lower the hardness a little more and put some peat to lower the Ph to 6 or > a little less, now the water it's almost pure RO, I think your water conditions sound fine. Just remember to keep the water changes regular as rams are sensitive to poor water quality. >but my rams don't pair >up, and the only male keep fighting and chasing the two females. The wild Colombian rams I have did the same thing - the male was aggressive towards the females until one of them became ripe. Then the male began to court her. I think you just need to be patient. > I bought some H.loretoensis as dithers and two neons, but this helped only > in part, I use common guppies as dithers as tetras are predatory towards free-swimming cichlid fry for the first week or so. The guppies don't seem to notice the fry and the cichlids can easily keep the guppies away from the fry if they do get too close. > maybe they are too small to breed, so I'm trying to feed them > heavily to let them grow a little bigger. This should ripen the females within weeks. > What I cannot understand is why the male keeps doing that, aren't they > supposed to form a pair and remain toghether all the time? Do I have to buy > another male? or do I have to just wait? When they do pair they generally stay bonded as long as their reproductive cycles remain in sync (both wanting to spawn at the same time). I have a pair in a 360 litre aquarium that have been bonded for about 6 weeks so far. Another male may only help if the aquarium is big enough to house two pairs - probably should be at least 90 cm. Wait - that is always good advice! > Thanks a lot for your help, and for your patience with all those questions. > > Have a great day > Simone Vicini (svicini-at-lcnet.it) Hope this helps. Lee Vancouver, Canada. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
These experiments might interest those of you who are blue ram fans. >From previous discussions on several boards I decided to conduct some experiments with spawning rams in various pHs. I set up 13 pairs for these tests at different pHs. The standard method for hatching the eggs was to fill a gallon container with tank water, siphon the eggs into the container 24 hours after spawning, float the container in the main tank and see what the hatch percentage was after 48 hours. The water in the container was exchanged with tank water twice daily. The water was 75%RO/25%tap. For the first set of tests I did not add any anti-fungal or airstones to the containers. At 5.5 a hatch percentage of 80%-90% was acheived. At 6.0 50%-70% was acheived. At 6.5 20%-30% was achieved. At 7.0 0% was achieved. In all cases the ones that did not hatch fungused very quickly. To change the experiment I then added meth blue and airstones to the containers and did not change the water. At 7.0 a 70%-90% was achieved. I have not tried lower yet as I do not think that the percentage will get appreciably higher. One item about this is that none of the higher pH hatches has been hatched longer than 3 weeks yet and that is when they will die off after hatching. The higher pH may still have some affect on the fry. The lower pH data is based on earlier spawns and will be updated with info from new spawns at the lower pH. (post date information. At this time, one week after hatching in 7.0, the survival rate is down to about 25%.) One other item. One of the males in the pairs has the color pattern of a gold ram. It is showing a lack of black markings from the gill plates to the tail. I am not sure if this is a fright coloration or if it will keep it as it grows. Either way, I am keeping some of the young when this pair spawns to see if it follows into the next generation and see how many generations it takes to keep the pattern on most of the fish hatched. Also, even at the 1" length the pairs are pretty vicious about protecting the eggs. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
I have to agree with Joel - kinda. I had a spawn that fungused extremely quickly at pH of 7.0 However at pH 6.7 with an airstone only - no meth blue I estimate a better than 70% hatch rate. I did however get a large number of belly sliders (airstone too vigorous?) 55 free swimming:15 belly sliders. At 3 weeks after spawning I have more than 40 fry. The biggest is approx 1cm. My water is tap water treated with Seachem Acid Buffer and a small amount of peat in the filter. steph ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Simone, I think your problem has been your source for Rams. Some of the toughest dwarfs I ever had were some WILD-CAUGHT Rams. They came in looking like little gray mice, but turned into spectacular specimens. As a bonus I got several Apisto. viejita color form III with them! I kept them in my normal tap water (soft and neutral) and around 28ºC (82ºF). No paracites or diseases. Mike Wise Simone Vicini wrote: > > Does anyone have any opinions on how to rank the different > >species in which are hardest to breed? I've found that many of them > >(not all!) are not too difficult if follow the advise that turns up on > >this forum. I'd like to hear stories on which are the most difficult. > >I'd like to try some of the difficult ones to satisfy my curiosity. > > Here I am. > > Ramirezi!!!!!! the most difficoult for me!!!! > > More than a month till now and lost 3 specimens and other three infested > with Hexamita, the first 2 died of a tubercolosys (sp?) the other because of > a fight and these three seems to recover well now after the metrodinazole > cure. (thanks Maladorno Dionigi) > > Kaycy helped me with these fishes and I think she got bored with all the > problems I had with them (you will never figure out how many answers she had > to listen to :-(( ), she is still helping me and I'm sure I will have a > spawn from them soon or later. All the other fishes were doing great in my > tank but I decided to treat everything (except for the fishes ;-)) with HCl > and bleach, I hope I have sterilized everything. > > Now I'm going to restart again, acid RO water, weekly water changes, peat, > good frozen food (BS, Bloodworms) three or two times a day. > > Just my experience (here in Italy a lot of us have problem with rams) > Bye > Simone Vicini (svicini-at-lcnet.it) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. > For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, > email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. > Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Yes, I did mean 8 weeks. In 1997 I kept detailed records of my spawnings and fish growth. Fish freeswimming on January 3 laid eggs on March 1. These fish were taken to Chicago and sold at the ACA as 2-inch males and 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 inch females. Most of those fish had successfully bred several times by July. Fish were fed a minimum of four times per day, a mixture of frozen brine, live BBS, frozen bloodworms (the primary food), and live daphnia on weekends. Water changes were made 1 - 3 times per week, 25% per change, with straight R/O water. Rams seem to need more frequent feedings than Apistos and will grow extremely rapidly if provided four or more daily feedings of generous amounts of food. Fish were bred in 10 gallon bare bottom tanks, fed infusoria and BBS for the first three to four days, then switched to primarily BBS and live daphnia. At about three weeks, shaved frozen brine and frozen bloodworms were added to the diet. At about 1/4" fry were moved into 40 gallon breeder tanks with watersprite cover. Clutches ranged from about 65 to 206 fry. Beginning at 8 weeks, there were constantly pairs spawning in the grow-out tanks. It was not unusual to have 10 pairs with eggs simultaneously in a tank of 100 fish. I don't know if I had a particularly vigorous strain but I was able to consistently produce males 1 - 1-1/4 inches SL and females 5/8 - 7/8 inches SL that were breeding in 8 weeks. I haven't bred any rams in almost a year, all my tanks have been given to Apistos. I cannot turn out breeding Apistos in 8 weeks no matter what the feeding schedule but I keep trying. Charles Ray >-----Original Message----- >From: Charles Ray <raychah-at-auburn.campus.mci.net> > > >>filter, and some floating water sprite. Rams will begin breeding at 8 >>weeks of age and will breed every ten days for virtually the length of >>their lives. >> >Hello Charles, >Do you really mean 8 weeks? >When I was fortunate to breed Ramirezi the fry were 6 weeks old before >they came off newly hatched brine shrimp and ten months old before they >started to pair off and successfully breed. >Helen > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. >For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, >email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. >Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
I've been keeping _M. ramirezi_ for some time now, and like quite a few have often been disappointed at the initial attempts to induce "proper" parental behaviors in new breeding pairs. It's almost like trying to "deprogram" a (insert religious sect of choice) convert at times. But in reading some of the banter tossed back- and- forth concerning collecting trips, habitats, population densities, etc., I seem to have stumbled on a technique that works amazingly well on these intended breeders. I crowd the (insert expletive of choice) out of the tank. The tank I'm working with now is one of my "standard" 15 gal longs, measuring 30*12*12 in. Current population: 6 _M. ramirezi_, 4 _M. altispinosa_, 22 _P. axelrodi_, 1 _S. nigriventris_ and even a handful of Glass Shrimp. The results have been similar and easily repeatable for four differing groups of Rams now under these conditions. Pair formations seem more spontaneous, and breeding behaviors soon follow. From the very first nest, the pair make honest attempts to protect the clutch, sharing in normal guard and patrol behavior. Naturally at such densities losses are high, but this leads merely to another clutch where the choice of location often improves along with a better "sense" of the competetion. They seem to be more successful at getting the eggs to the fry stage by then and at least one of the pairs will end up with a small cloud of fry. But again, it's hard to protect them against multi- directional "flash" attacks and you'll lose those fry too. Yet the Rams do *try*, which seems all too rare with Rams available today. I'm assuming it's the crowded conditions that trigger the responses, but I haven't collected enough information to be able to fix the cause. Two readily- formulated SWAGs easily come to mind, though. Large numbers and increased competetion may reinforce an innate territorality where team efforts increase the ability to protect scarce resources, to which progeny becomes an extension. Or it may boil down to a case of simple stress reaction, where paired behavior increases the likelihood of survival for your gene pool. Observation of the pairs seems to indicate more of the former, as their health and other typical behavior patterns appear unaffected. But I do know this: A pair of new Rams, after making three attempts in a full tank, can be transferred to their own breeder along with a few Cardinals for dither/targets, and they become a joy to behold as parents again. I'm hoping to continue this through a few clutches for each pair to determine if the pattern "sticks". And on subsequent generations for possible reinforcement. But I was wondering if anyone else had noticed this pattern before? And if the technique might be adaptable as a possibility with some of the more difficult species (true aggression taken into consideration)? Oh, I can provide detailed tank specs - they seem to really enjoy this particular environment. -Y- David A. Youngker http://www.mindspring.com/~nestor10 nestor10-at-mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Hi, I rather have 8 rams in a tank, 2 males and 6 females. They do form pair for spawning and defend eggs together against everyone else. I am pulling eggs from mine, it may be controversial but they ate their eggs before. They separate after that and male starts to court next female choosing one most ready to spawn. They are not harem spawning in terms male has one female at a time, but they are not truly monogamous because male pairs with anyone ready and parts easily for the next. I believe here is a term for this kind of behavior. The first batch of fry I pulled from them (F2, if count the store fish as F0) is doing fine and I had only 3 dead eggs. Did anyone tried to feed them San Francisco BS which is said to be 2 times smaller than regular? Ram freeswimmers are too small to eat regular in the beginning, and require something smaller. My highest losses of fry were at stage then they do not eat BS, and with SanF BS I hoped to reduce losses. Did anyone at all tried SF BS? Lilia On Sun, 1 Nov 1998 kathy@thekrib.com wrote: > > > On Sat, 31 Oct 1998, lewis weil wrote: > > > Hmm. I have always heard Ramerizi was a harem breeder. I was just > > I haven't breed these myself, so I can only give accounts of what others > have done. > I was just in Houston and dropped by Lilia's. She had 6 rams..2 males > and 4 females in a tank...a 20 I believe. I also got to see the batches > of fry from these guys...looks like they harem spawn to me. They are > also the only fish in the tank. She has a strain that is very > interesting....a long finned variety including the tail, wish I had a > camera, I will try next visit. They were gorgeous!! > > Kathy > k > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com. > For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, > email apisto-request@majordomo.pobox.com. > Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Good news you have both sexes. I have found that males have one black spot whereas the females have a broken spot which gves the impression of having two black spots. Helen. From: K & D martin <martndk@ibm.net> >Ok, i've noticed that on a couple of my micro. altispinossas that they have >two spots along the lateral line (line that runs down the middle of their >bodies horizontally, right? or where one would be if you could see it) and >the others only have a small black spot or a big black spot. what does this >signify??anything? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Helen Burns wrote: > > Good news you have both sexes. I have found that males have one black spot > whereas the females have a broken spot which gves the impression of having > two black spots. > Helen. > > From: K & D martin <martndk@ibm.net> > >Ok, i've noticed that on a couple of my micro. altispinossas that they have > >two spots along the lateral line (line that runs down the middle of their > >bodies horizontally, right? or where one would be if you could see it) and > >the others only have a small black spot or a big black spot. what does > this > >signify??anything? I'm not so sure it is such a clear case of sexual dimorphism. I have both males and females that behaviourally express a single mid-lateral blotch when not spawning. However, the same fish express a broken blotch, giving the appearance of two blotches, when breeding. I think, to a large extent, that the mid-lateral blotch is behaviourally expressive - its appearance depends on 'mood'. Hope that helps. Lee ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
About one year ago, I've got some wild rams collected by a German friend in Venezuela near the town of Barradas. At first, the fishes were small and didn't show much color or something special. But when they became adults, they have developed brilliant colors, and for my opinion, much different from the Asian bred rams we normally see in the trade. Basically, the Barradas population is much slender bodied than the Asian ones (that, from the photos I have seen, are quite "robust"), and with much more blue than the "normal" rams. Some individuals also have upper and lower caudal fin lobes with red color (like Microgeophagus altispinosa). Does anybody know something about rams bred in other countries? Are they deep-bodied like the Asian stock too? Do they look (according to above description) with Barradas fish? Cheers, Marco. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Sherry writes: > I saw some Rams (M. Ramirezi) at my LFS today. I asked the salesperson to > bag up four of them for me. Once I got home, I realized I had gotten only > three regular Rams, and one Gold Ram. My questions are: > Will the two types inter-breed? Yes Am I right in assuming the Gold Ram > is just a color variation? Yes. It is a captive bred variation that does not occur in the wild, or at least does not survive in the wild. > Is it acceptable to cross breed these two types? Depends on who you ask, but generally, yes. > Will it lead to a > weakened coloration of the regular type of Rams in the fry? Depending on the dominance issues of the color genes the first generation will be either all blue or all gold. I would suspect all blue. Breeding of siblings should give a 75/25 ratio. > I hate to have to bag the Gold Ram up and take it back to the store if I > don't have too. Please advise. Considering that 99% of the gold rams in the LFSs are from Asia, you can bet it is a male. The best way to succeed in breeding the golds is by crossing with a wild form (blue), and then breeding back to get the gold. Do as you like. If someone has a problem with it, tell him/her where to get off. They are the same species, and the gold has no wild population purity to protect. Bob Dixon ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
S. Bunch wrote: > One of them was sick when I got it home (the gold one that I hadn't wanted > to begin with). I medicated for gill parasites, which is the only diagnosis > I could find for the hard breathing and swollen gills they were showing. It > didn't seem to be helping though. I thought maybe I was contributing to it, > so I checked my water quality. Ammonia, Nitrates, Nitrites all at "0". PH > 6.8, Total hardness <10. Hi Sherry, I have found that both the domestic, or farmed, varieties as well as wild fish tend to show some kind of respiratory stress (evidenced by the hard breathing you mention) when first brought into a store or wholesaler. I have used Paragon, by Aquatronics, with great success. The only side-effect is that the rams develop a lymphocystis-like condition, likely in response to the active ingredient in the Paragon. However, after a several of weeks of regular water changes (50% every week) the lymphocystis-like growths disappear and the rams seem perfectly healthy from then on. Hope this helps and good luck with them, there're worth the work. Lee ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
"Jones, Erick" wrote: > Mike > Its been my personal observation that rams seem terribly "delicate" most of > the time. Would that be because I'm keeping them at temp's to far below what > they prefer? I usually run my tanks around 76-80 f. And since I'm > considering trying them again what would be a good temp for them? Thanks Erik, Rams are a fish that inhabits savanna pools in the wild. Since there is so little shade, the water often reaches into the mid-90ºF (mid-30ºC) temperature range. Like discus they prefer their water warm. I would never keep them below 85ºF (30ºC) for any length of time if I could help it. > As far as the Ich goes I long ago gave up medicating it. I found that > raising the temp doing daily water changes and cutting off all light to the > tank for a week clears it faster and more effectively than anything else > I've come across. Plus I don't have any problems with the more medication > sensitive species. This isn't a bad way as long as the fish can handle higher temperatures. The temperature ideally should be above 85ºF (30ºC), with frequent water changes, and increased aeration. If your fish can't handle high temperatures (e.g. goldfish, madtoms, etc.) then you are going to have to medicate them. I have heard of some success using a diatom filter running continuously for a week. The theory is that the Ich parasite is strained out of the water faster than it can infect any fish. Mike Wise > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. > For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, > email apisto-request@listbox.com. > Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
This thread appeared in Kullander's Cichlid Systematics Discussion List last year, when he wrote the following response:
"My search for the earliest publication of a generic name for the ramirezi eventually took me to a Danish aquarium book in which there is a description by Meulengracht-Madsen that precisely fulfils the requirements for availability of Mikrogeophagus. There are several other publications in the 1960s which mention "Microgeophagus", but those that I have examined all fail one or more of the requirements for availability. I would not be surprised if some earlier "description" would be found, could be in a local Singapore aquarium journal as well as in an Icelandic aquarium book; but that should not keep us from using Mikrogeophagus now, it is the "best" we have.
The correct citation is:
Mikrogeophagus Meulengracht-Madsen, 1968 in Schiötz & Christensen, Jeg har Akvarium, p. 370 (type by monotypy Apistogramma ramirezi Myers & Harry).
Sven O Kullander"
Zeco
To add to this line of comments, I've found that my German Blue Rams gave me some interesting behavior for dwarf Cichlids. With each spawn the male would coax the female to a certain spot in the tank to spawn and after spawning would chase the female away. He wouldn't let her near the eggs at all. He did all the work fanning the eggs, moving the fry after the hatched to a different spot and then guarding the batch of fry once they become free swimming. Only once did he allow the female anywhere near the fry once they became free swimming. Weird part is each time after the fry were free swimming for about 4 days he would devour the whole group of them. I got to the point where I would let him fan the eggs, move the wigglers to a secure spot then 2 days after the fry were up and swimming I would have to remove him along with the female to get some fry to be able to grow out. Anyone else have this problem with their Rams. John
Hi guys, Yesterday I saw an unusual thing in my rams tank. My gold rams decided to spawn, and one female spawned with two males at the same time. I mean, she was seeding the eggs on the slate, and two males were following her fertilizing the eggs. After that both males and female took turns defending them from other rams in the tank. Have anyone seen this kind of behavior in rams? I was breeding them for some time, and this is the first time I saw it. They are in 10g, 5 males, 4 females until recently (one died yesterday). (it is more of males, of course, but before, even then I had 10 males to 1 female, the spawning have always been on the 1 to 1 basis.) Best, Lilia ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
The best article on biotopes of the Orinoco Ram that I've seen is Dr. Wolfang Staeck's 1993 article on their distribution & ecology: Staeck, W. 1993. Zur Verbreitung und Ökologie von Papiliochromis ramirezi. DATZ, 46(4): 239-242. From 1986 to 1991 Staeck wrote a series of articles for DATZ that described the biotopes of many of the Apistogramma species that he collected in Peru & Venezuela. The articles that I've read were exceptionally detailed and well worth reading. I have translated some of these and they are available through the ASG library for ASG members. Dr. Sven O. Kullander also describes different dwarf cichlid biotopes in Ingo Koslowski's book, Die Buntbarsche der Neuen Welt - Zwergcichliden. Unfortunately for those who don't read German, the book is written in German (I have translated this book, too.). Römer's Cichliden Atlas v.1 has a lot of biotope data, too - especially on the upper Rio Negro. Again, it's only available in German right now. In English, Kullander describes Peruvian aquatic biotopes in detail in his book, Cichlid Fishes of the Amazon River Drainage of Peru, available from the Swedish Museum of Natural History. It may be a bit technical for anyone not familiar with biological & ecological terms. Many of the more recent scientific descriptions also include a brief description of the collecting site. Otherwise, some of the old TFH "bring 'em back alive" articles from the 60s, 70s & 80s, and the Linke & Staeck and Mayland & Bork books are about all that you have available. Mike Wise "F. Tadeo" wrote: > does anyone know where i can look up natural habitats/biotopes for apistos > and other dwarf cichlids. i'm tryin to find info on d. filamentosus, rams, > and apistos so i could try to set up tanks similar to their habitats. > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. >
|
|
||
 |
|
||
Up to
Apistogramma/Dwarf Cichlids 
The Krib
|
This page was last updated 17 February 2002 | ||