Apistogramma sp. "Cara Pintada"
Contents:
- Apisto sp. "Cara Pintada"
by Jota Melgar <jsmelgar/compuserve.com> (Tue, 19 Sep 2000)
- Apisto sp. "Cara Pintada"
by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com> (Tue, 19 Sep 2000)
- Apisto sp. "Cara Pintada"
by Jota Melgar <jsmelgar/compuserve.com> (Tue, 19 Sep 2000)
- Apisto sp. "Cara Pintada"
by Frauley Elson <fraulels/minet.ca> (Wed, 20 Sep 2000)
- Apisto sp. "Cara Pintada"
by Jota Melgar <jsmelgar/compuserve.com> (Wed, 20 Sep 2000)
- Apistogramma Tiger Stripe
by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com> (Mon, 23 Apr 2001)
- Apistogramma Tiger Stripe
by Frauley Elson <fraulels/videotron.ca> (Tue, 24 Apr 2001)
- [Fwd: BOUNCE apisto@admin.listbox.com: Message too long (over
by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com> (Thu, 26 Apr 2001)
- A. sp. Tiger-stripe
by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com> (Tue, 08 May 2001)
by Jota Melgar <jsmelgar/compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000
To: "INTERNET:apisto/listbox.com" <apisto/listbox.com>
>What complex it is from, water conditions etc?
Regani group / regani complex. The type locality (Quebrada Zavalillo, 16km
from Nauta) is unusual in that so far it's the only regani group / regani
complex species found west of Iquitos, Peru.
Water with a pH around 6.5 and 80uS should be fine. Values at the type
locality were as follows:
Conductivity = 9,2 µS
pH = 6
Temp. = 85 °F
Dissolved O2 = 5,7 ppm
I have some bad pictures I'll be uploading shortly if I don't get better
ones.
Julio
by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000
To: apisto/listbox.com
All that I can add to Mike J. & Julio's comments is that A. sp. Carapintada is
the commercial name used by the Panduro brothers for the fish that was introduced
into the German hobby by Koslowski earlier this year as A. sp. Winkelfleck
(Angle-patch) from the Rio Orosa near Pebas, Peru. Koslowski thinks that Julio's
fish is another nearly identical form from above Nauta, Peru. The two forms,
however, do not interbreed if given a preference. The two forms are often
intermixed at export stations so this may cause breeding problems. The ASG plans
to publish Koslowski's paper on new species of Apistogramma from Peru in upcoming
issues of the Apisto-gram (in English).
Mike Wise
Daryl Hudson wrote:
> I was wondering in anyone on the list has any information on this fish?
> What complex it is from, water conditions etc?
>
> I haven't been able to find anything, so I thought I'd ask those with far
> more experience than I.
>
> You can e-mail me off list if you prefer.
>
> Thanks for you time.
>
> Daryl
>
> Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List
> Archives"!
>
by Jota Melgar <jsmelgar/compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000
To: "INTERNET:apisto/listbox.com" <apisto/listbox.com>
The fish I'm calling "Cara Pintada" is the one Koslowski introduces as
"Masken" in his 12/99 article in Datz magazine. As Mike mentions, both
species were initially exported as "Cara Pintada" in mixed shipments.
Julio
by Frauley Elson <fraulels/minet.ca>
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000
To: apisto/listbox.com
I have a fish here which is similar, but I've seen two distinct colour forms. I've been picking away at a TFH article on it for a few weeks now now. I have to make reference to colour patterns other than black, as the forms I've seen share their black markings.
My male (a mixer from an undefined locality) had a blue and red mottled face, a vivid metallic green back, red tips on the dorsal, a yellow caudal with powder blue tips, and black and yellow ventrals. Pretty fish.
I've also seen a fish with an overall beige colouration, but the identical stripes along the flanks.
Is this what others are seeing from adult males, or did I have a different colour variety? I'm going to have to call it something for the article, which is on breeding it. I don't want to confuse the issue.
I have a dozen or so fry doing well.
-Gary
by Jota Melgar <jsmelgar/compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000
To: "INTERNET:apisto/listbox.com" <apisto/listbox.com>
Mike,
>Does this mean that the Panduro brothers are shipping 2 fish under the
same name?
I don't think they get the "Winkelfleck" anymore because of the distance
and Tino (the collector) has left the area. The "Masken" is still available
and sold by the collector (Roger Souza) to the panduro's as "Cara Pintada".
>Or did they give Koslowski the wrong collecting data?
Not for the Winkelfleck. For the "Masken" all I can say is that we
collected it near Nauta, which is very far from Contamana.
Julio
Julio
by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001
To: Apisto Mailing List <apisto/listbox.com>
I was recently asked about A. sp. Tiger stripe
written about in the most recent (May 2001) TFH
Magazine. I thought I would send this to the list
members before I get any more questions about this
"new" apisto.
Mike Wise
Glen,
This is an update on the earlier post. I looked up
the TFH issue you mentioned (May, 2001). The fish
that you asked about ("A. sp. Tiger-stripe) was
originally called "A. sp. Masken/Masked" by Ingo
Koslowski. He has used this name in his slide
programs since the late 1980s. The same fish is
shown in Aqualog's SACII as "A. cruzi" (p. 29,
S03455-4, second row, right photo only) and as "A.
sp. Peru" (p. 62, S03890-4), in Mayland & Bork as
"A. cruzi" (p. 57, bottom), in Yamazaki et al. as
"A. sp.", & in Römer's Atlas as "A. cruzi" (p. 12
& 203). The photo listed as "A. regani" in Linke &
Staeck (p. 113) probably is the same species, too
(or possibly A. sp. São Gabriel). This species has
also been sold commercially as "A. sp. Apache" &
"A. sp. Carapintada". "A. sp. Carapintada
/Painted-face" would be an excellent common name
but for one problem. This name was originally used
for another species that Römer introduced as "A.
sp. Winkelfleck/Anglespot". Because of the
confusion it would cause I've encouraged people
not to use "Carapintada", but use "Masken"
instead.
Now we have a new name ("Tiger-stripe") to add for
this fish. I won't fault Gary Elson's giving it a
name. For all I know, he wrote this article for
TFH a couple of years ago. TFH is known for
holding onto articles for several years before
publishing. Obviously he knew nothing about the
other names for this fish when he wrote his
article. I can only hope that the ASG gets my list
of apisto names up soon, just to avoid any more
confusion.
Mike Wise
by Frauley Elson <fraulels/videotron.ca>
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001
To: apisto/listbox.com
Hi,
Normally Id send this sort of thing privately, as Mike should have to
me, before posting to the list. However, Mike questions my research on
the sp. tiger stripe hobby name, and I question his.
Had he asked, Id have told him I had a correspondence with Ingo
Koslowski about the fish, before I wrote the article last year. While
its affinities are interesting to discuss, it is certainly not sp
Masken.
I'm aware of the photos Mike offers for his shot at IDing the fish. I've
seen quite a few of the actual fish as well. I think it's a little too
complicated to fit neatly on the synonyms list offered. This message
underscores a concern I have. I think the list project is a bit like
herding mice. How many pop names exist for each undescribed fish, or
how many fish exist for each name? I have a likely candidate to be sp
"masken" in my basement. Its solid markings have no relation to those of
sp "tiger stripe". Then again, I wouldnt guess at how many fish have
been exported as "masken", or which photo(s) Mike has looked at. With no
type specimens for reference, it strikes me as a lost cause.
Those who got through the list Mike offered will have noted no other
untranslated English names. They will also have noted a glaring lack of
Japanese names. The American hobby seems in love with the obscurity of
using popular German names (the sp designations in hobby literature are
just that - temporary tags on undescribed animals used so hobbyists will
be able to I.D the fish they want - when the proper work is done, these
names will get flushed). The Japanese have no such problem - they give
the new Apistos their collectors find and importers receive Japanese sp
designations and get on with it. I believe English speakers can do the
same.
-Gary Elson
Mike & Diane Wise wrote:
>
> I was recently asked about A. sp. Tiger stripe
> written about in the most recent (May 2001) TFH
> Magazine. I thought I would send this to the list
> members before I get any more questions about this
> "new" apisto.
>
> Mike Wise
>
> Glen,
>
> This is an update on the earlier post. I looked up
> the TFH issue you mentioned (May, 2001). The fish
> that you asked about ("A. sp. Tiger-stripe) was
> originally called "A. sp. Masken/Masked" by Ingo
> Koslowski. He has used this name in his slide
> programs since the late 1980s. The same fish is
> shown in Aqualog's SACII as "A. cruzi" (p. 29,
> S03455-4, second row, right photo only) and as "A.
> sp. Peru" (p. 62, S03890-4), in Mayland & Bork as
> "A. cruzi" (p. 57, bottom), in Yamazaki et al. as
> "A. sp.", & in Römer's Atlas as "A. cruzi" (p. 12
> & 203). The photo listed as "A. regani" in Linke &
> Staeck (p. 113) probably is the same species, too
> (or possibly A. sp. São Gabriel). This species has
> also been sold commercially as "A. sp. Apache" &
> "A. sp. Carapintada". "A. sp. Carapintada
> /Painted-face" would be an excellent common name
> but for one problem. This name was originally used
> for another species that Römer introduced as "A.
> sp. Winkelfleck/Anglespot". Because of the
> confusion it would cause I've encouraged people
> not to use "Carapintada", but use "Masken"
> instead.
>
> Now we have a new name ("Tiger-stripe") to add for
> this fish. I won't fault Gary Elson's giving it a
> name. For all I know, he wrote this article for
> TFH a couple of years ago. TFH is known for
> holding onto articles for several years before
> publishing. Obviously he knew nothing about the
> other names for this fish when he wrote his
> article. I can only hope that the ASG gets my list
> of apisto names up soon, just to avoid any more
> confusion.
>
> Mike Wise
>
>
> This is the apistogramma mailing list,
> apisto@listbox.com.
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by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001
To: Apisto Mailing List <apisto/listbox.com>
Frank O'Carroll wrote:
> this bounce because it was too long. Try editing and resend
> thanks, frank
>
> Subject: BOUNCE apisto@admin.listbox.com: Message too long (over 8000 chars)
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>
> Message-ID: <3AE6F403.C3433BA2@bewellnet.com>
> Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:57:55 -0600
> From: Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise@bewellnet.com>
> Reply-To: apistowise@bewellnet.com
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U)
> X-Accept-Language: en
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> To: apisto@listbox.com
> Subject: Re: Apistogramma Tiger Stripe
> References: <3AE498E7.12293428@bewellnet.com> <3AE61923.45CEF23A@videotron.ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> I had no intention of "flaming" Gary, who I respect greatly. I shouldn't have
> assumed he did not do diligent research on this fish before publishing the name.
> For this I sincerely apologize. But with all due respect to Gary & Ingo, I will
> stick with my opinion - and it is just my opinion - that A. sp. Tiger-stripe is
> the same species as the fish I prefer to call A. sp. Masken. I am limited to the
> photos in Gary's article, but to me the dark markings appear identical to those of
> the fish that are called A. sp. Masken by Koslowski. I must admit that my mentor,
> Ingo Koslowski, splits fish into more forms than I would, however.
>
> As I've said before, the influx of new regani-group species from Peruvian
> exporters is driving me crazy. This species,
> however, is fairly distinctive when compared to other Peruvian species. Right now
> the only species that are similar are A. cf. sp. Masken (Juruá) from the upper Rio
> Juruá of western Brazil & A. sp. São Gabriel/Alto Negro from the Rio Negro of
> Brazil. It is true there is no "type" specimen for an undescribed species that we
> can use as a reference. Therefore we must use the next bestthing. That would be
> the original published photos or fish, if available. It may not be perfect, but in
> this imperfect world it's about as good as it gets.
>
> So right now Gary & I disagree on the placement of this fish. We both have our own
> opinion and, like everyone else, we are
> entitled to our opinion. With more information these opinions can change. I know
> mine have changed many times over the years. Who knows, maybe it will change here,
> too. I was happy to learn recently that DNA studies are finally getting started on
> apistos. Maybe in a few years (decades?) we will have enough data to understand
> which forms are true species and which are geographic populations of valid
> species.
>
> With regard to all the names & the list that will eventually be on the ASG web
> site, it won't be perfect. Even the list of scientifically described species has
> its problems (e.g. is either A. sp. Mamoré or A. cf. trifasciata Guaporé the same
> as A. maciliensis; is A. roraimae the same as A. gibbiceps?). This is no reason
> not to try. I feel that it will help more than hinder.
>
> With regard to names, I have my own opinion. The following is from the
> introduction to my species list:
>
> "Another problem has arisen with the increase in forms. This is the multiplicity
> of names given to a single form by several different suppliers. The following list
> was made to alleviate some of the confusion and help you recognize a species/form
> listed under a different name. The bold names are my preferred names for what I
> feel are valid forms. They are my personal
> preferences. They may not be the best known names for the fish in question. I
> chose my preferred names based on the name that most accurately describes the
> fish. Names with known collecting data take preference over names that describe
> the physical features of a species. In forms without collecting data, names
> describing special features are preferred over names dedicated to a collector or
> hobbyist."
>
> I personally don't care what language a name is in. I usually use the name under
> which a fish is originally listed, be it English (A. sp. Lyretail "Panduro"),
> German (A. sp. Erdfresser/Earth-eater), Japanese (A. sp. Malome), Spanish (A. sp.
> Carapintada/Painted-head) or any other language - if it works with the statement
> above. Since most new species are introduced to the hobby in German publications,
> most newly introduced fish have German names. I see no reason for each species to
> have its own special name in English, however. After all, we all know what A. sp.
> Rotpunkt is without calling it something like "A. sp. Zipper-band" or "A. sp.
> Caquetá". I have no problem with translating the name (A. sp. Red-spot instead of
> A. sp. Rotpunkt) however. I usually use the original name along with its English
> translation (e.g. A. sp. Smaragd/Emerald), but a completely different name creates
> problems (e.g. A. sp. Erdfresser in Germany; A. sp. Lyretail Purus in the US, & A.
> sp. Rondonia in Japan). BTW the Japanese translate the German names of most
> apistos into Japanese. The English speaking hobby should at least do the same.
> That's why I've never wanted to give a name to a species newly entering the
> English speaking hobby.
>
> Mike Wise
>
> Frauley Elson wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > Normally Id send this sort of thing privately, as Mike should have to
> > me, before posting to the list. However, Mike questions my research on
> > the sp. tiger stripe hobby name, and I question his.
> > Had he asked, Id have told him I had a correspondence with Ingo
> > Koslowski about the fish, before I wrote the article last year. While
> > its affinities are interesting to discuss, it is certainly not sp
> > Masken.
> >
> > I'm aware of the photos Mike offers for his shot at IDing the fish. I've
> > seen quite a few of the actual fish as well. I think it's a little too
> > complicated to fit neatly on the synonyms list offered. This message
> > underscores a concern I have. I think the list project is a bit like
> > herding mice. How many pop names exist for each undescribed fish, or
> > how many fish exist for each name? I have a likely candidate to be sp
> > "masken" in my basement. Its solid markings have no relation to those of
> > sp "tiger stripe". Then again, I wouldnt guess at how many fish have
> > been exported as "masken", or which photo(s) Mike has looked at. With no
> > type specimens for reference, it strikes me as a lost cause.
> >
> > Those who got through the list Mike offered will have noted no other
> > untranslated English names. They will also have noted a glaring lack of
> > Japanese names. The American hobby seems in love with the obscurity of
> > using popular German names (the sp designations in hobby literature are
> > just that - temporary tags on undescribed animals used so hobbyists will
> > be able to I.D the fish they want - when the proper work is done, these
> > names will get flushed). The Japanese have no such problem - they give
> > the new Apistos their collectors find and importers receive Japanese sp
> > designations and get on with it. I believe English speakers can do the
> > same.
> >
> > -Gary Elson
> >
>
> > Search http://www.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Search http://www.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001
To: Apisto Mailing List <apisto/listbox.com>
A week or so ago I gave my opinion about A. sp.
Tiger stripe. My opinion was that it is the same
species as A. sp. Masken. After discussing this
with Julio Melgar & Ingo Koslowski it appears that
my ID is wrong. A. sp. Tiger-stripe is not A. sp.
Masken.
Koslowski wrote me the following: "Gary´s
Tigerstripe is most likely a form of the
Winkelfleck. I am not sure, because I never saw
this alive. It shows the body- and fin shape, the
metallic sheen and the typical aggressive pattern
of this species. The main difference is that it
has a less striped caudal fin and more red on the
gill covers. It is definitely not a Masken, which
is less compact with a slightly more pointed head,
has no metallic body and slightly different gill
cover markings (difficult to describe). It
normally has a higher dorsal fin, more prominent
abdominal stripes a more slender caudal spot and
more regularly striped caudal fin. It is also more
vertically depressed. Nonetheless both species are
similar and it may be difficult to tell them apart
if one hasn't had them alive."
The caudal fin pattern is sufficiently different
from that of A. sp. Winkelfleck (but like that
seen on A. sp. Masken) that for now I will put it
on my list as a separate species.
Randy Cary sent me a photo of A. sp. Carapintada.
Well, Randy, they might not be Masken after all.
They might be Tiger-stripe. Gary, do you know
anyone who is still keeping offspring from your
original Tiger-stripes? Contact me off list.
Oh, BTW, does anyone have a good recipe for crow?
I'm sure that I'll be eating crow over this fiasco
for a while - { :-(
Mike Wise
The Krib
Apistogramma/Dwarf Cichlids
The Krib