The Krib Apistogramma/Dwarf Cichlids	[E-mail]

Apisto. Cacatuoides

by oleg-at-Veritas.COM (Oleg Kiselev)
Date: 6 Aug 92

wrigh760-at-Armstrong.EDU (Jon Wright) writes:
>Well, I just obtained 2 'cockatoo dwarf cichlids' which I believe to be Apisto.
>Cacatuoides. I am looking for some information on the species and anyone who
>might be keeping/breeding them.

Hopefully they are a pair, not just "2 fish"!  If you can buy more of them
and you have the space -- GO GET MORE!  They are perhaps the most colourful
Apistos.

Water chemistry:
        preferably soft (they like it under 4 GH, under 1 KH), but will
        tolerate harder water (definitely will do OK in water up to 8GH);

        preferably mildly acidic (say, 6.5-6.7 pH), though they can be found 
        in "black water" at 5pH or so.  They will tolerate alkaline water,
        but don't expect them to spawn in it;

Temperatures:
        typical Apisto temperatures: around high 70's, though they will
        tolerate temperatures in the low 90's.

Foods: 
        typical Apisto fare: daphnia, brine shrimp, small worms, flakes;
        they are reluctant to go to the surface to hunt for mosquito larvae
        and fruit flies.

Landscape:
        fine gravel and coconut "caves" may be the best for aquarium; in the 
        wild they live over the leaf mould and mud muck and spawn in huge
        leaves curled into tight tubes or in tennis-ball sized nut shells.
        If I were to keep these fish now, I would use gardenning peat as
        substrate (it's easy to vacuum up in water changes and replace with
        the new stuff -- and it's cheap), but that just about precludes
        using rooted plants as a landscape.  These fish like having a lot of
        cover and green plants look much better than a 4" layer of decaying
        leaves, tree roots, fallen branches, flooded marsh grasses and other
        "natural" decore, so you may opt for a typical well-planted tank.

Space:
        Males will fight.  These are small fish with stable territories,
        so if you give each male a 1.5-3 sq ft territory defined by major 
        landscape features (plant hedges, other visual obstructions), they
        will coexist in peace.

Companions:
        small Corys, small tetras,



-- 
"... i heard the droning / in the shrine
             of the sea-monkey / palace of the brine ..." -- Pixies.
Oleg Kiselev                                             oleg-at-veritas.com
VERITAS Software                           ...!{apple|uunet}!veritas!oleg

Apisto. Cacatuoides question

by Mike Jacobs <mfjacobs/geocities.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Mike.........There's good news and bad news!  The bad first.........the so-called 
triple red strains usually, like guppies, don't have a pattern of  throwing 
100% triple red young....the probable % of triple red male may run from  
only 10% up to as strong as the particular strain is......maybe 80%.  If 
your male is already breeding then his colors and color patterns are 
probably 95% set.  If the amount of red is not to your liking then wait for 
some of his "puppies" to grow up and keep the ones with the most red.  Next 
problem.............a combination of high temp (75-80+) with a high pH 
(7.5+) will cause the % of males  to be 90%(it's happened to 
me)........conversly, with lower pH and temps the ratio of females will 
increase.

Mike

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Oh boy!

by IDMiamiBob/aol.com
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

I had a similar experience with cucatoides during July.  I wasn't watching my
pH, and the male wasn't interested in spawning.  The female, however spawned
twice without him, leaving two infertile clutches about three weeks apart.  I
guess when she's ready, she's ready!  So by tomorrow your clutch will
probably be solid white, indicating infertility.
Bob

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Apisto Pediatrics

by "Francis Brian O'Carroll" (Frank) <ocarroll/acm.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996
To: Erik Olson (e-mail)

Eric said:
>We've also raised A. cacatuoides.  Both were big enough to quickly begin
>on naplii, though it's recommended you have java moss or other places for
>infusoria to collect.  Though it's been 3-4 months, the cacatuoides still
>only eat naplii (occasionally they wrestle with smaller daphnia... it's
>funny to watch)

I started my wild A. cacatuoides on nauplii and they grew more quickly than
yours, by 3-4 months they were eating frozen bloodworms. I left a whole
bunch of myriophyllum-type floating weeds in there though, so infusoria
could have given slow growers extra help. But growth was definitely
bimodal - some remained very small, some were very large, from the same
spawn.

Hey, by not much older than 3-4 months old, the most precocious of the
male fry had grown up and spawned with his mom, who had been left in the
tank!

FW: Cacatuoides

by Thomas Mroz <tmroz/art-inc.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996
To: "'Apisto/aquaria.net'" <Apisto/aquaria.net>

>
>Kevin Goodman worte about A. cacatuoides a while ago.  A couple of
>things from my experience.
>
>1. At M1.5" and F1", these guys may be ready to breed.  Keep an eye on
>them.  I've had older "fry" in growout tanks spawn in corners at
>slightly smaller than this.
>
>2.  Cacatuoides is a great dwarf, in that it is not as sensitive to
>water conditions (pH and hardness) as some of the other, more exotic
>dwarfs.  I've spawned it both in soft, RO water as well as my tap water
>(also about 160 ppm) and in a range of pH's. My only problems have been
>large differences in sex ratio.  When I was breeding double and triple
>reds in 2/3 RO, 1/3 tap augmented with pH down (sorry, I don't make
>frequent measurements of hardness or pH), I was getting large numbers
>of females; ratios of nearly 6/1!  Now, I am spawning mostly doubles in
>tap water (harder and higher pH), and I have had entire batchs of males
>only!  I thought that low pH was supposed to result in more males, but
>I may have that wrong.  
>
>3.  I feed my apistos alot of baby brine, as they tend to eat these
>vigorously, and there is less chance for tank fouling.  My cacatuoides
>will also eat flake, so I will occasionally give them that.  You just
>have to watch that they eat it all, mine sometimes will not touch it if
>it has sat on the bottom for any length of time.  Frozen is good too -
>anything they will go after.  I would use bloodworms, but I am highly
>alergic to them!  I think one of the best things for Apistos (actually
>most fish) is variety and water cleanliness (ie, no uneaten food).
>
>4.  Cacatuoides are great because they tend to be relatively content
>with any water chemistry, they are prolific, and they are normally in
>demand at local pet shops.  Also, there are several different color and
>fin variations out, which is beginning to make keeping a collection of
>cacatuoides a many-tank endevour in itself!
>
>Good luck - keep us posted on your progress with these guys!
>
>Tom
>
>

new apisto tank

by SanfordD/liberty.issaquah.wednet.edu (Sanford, Dave LHS-STAFF)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997
To: apisto/aquaria.net

Congrats to Joe M on his decision to convert to a planted tank for
apistos.   I would suggest that you start with A. cacatuoides, a
group of one male and 5 females in a 55 gal tank, rather than any
kind of "community" tank.  That way you can observe the natural
polygamous harem spawning they are known for. It might be interesting
to use 2 males but there could be problems as the natural territory
size is about 3 feet in all directions.  Let us know how it goes.


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Apisto. Cacatuoides question

by Mike Jacobs <mfjacobs/geocities.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

James........A little red in the dorsal fin, maybe up to a splotch in the caudal 
fin and it's a  'normal'........a great deal of red in the dorsal and a great deal 
of red in the caudal and it's a 'double-red'.  Red in the dorsal caudal and 
anal is a 'triple red'.  At this moment the strains are NOT breeding 
anywhere's near true........maybe only 10-30% of the males will be what 
they are suppose to be.....but that's ok, that just leaves work yet to be done.  
We are in on the beginnings of the "new" Apisto era....and it's fun.

Mike

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Apistogramma cacutoides

by "Nestor10" <nestor10/mindspring.chkr.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria.freshwater.cichlids

Ahh, yes, the beautiful Cockatoo Dwarf.

Native to the Amazon Basin. 3 to 3 1/2 in (75 - 90 mm) fully grown. Soft to
medium water, say, 2 - 10 DH, at or slightly below neutral pH and a
temperature of a degree or two from 76F (24 - 25C), raised slightly at
breeding time.

Does best as a harem breeder, as females tend to the young and the extra
females give the male something to do in the meantime. Males are larger,
with greatly extended fins compared to females. Females display a lot of
yellow when ready to breed. Provide a lot of caves, as in coconut shells or
small flowerpots, for breeding. Fry are large enough for newly-hatched
artemia right off at free-swimming stage.

They absolutely hate foul water, and are sensitive even to medications, so I
would tend to treat along the lines of Discus and Cardinals when it comes to
water quality.

Gosh, it's been a while since I've seen them. I imagine that the "au" in
your address means I may still be a while seeing them here in Florida. Which
color do you have?

By the way, the species name is a lot like the common name Cockatoo =>
cacatu(oides).

-Y-

nestor10-at-mindspring.chkr.com
"chkr." is for mail-bots

Apisto ID

by Michael W McGrath <mcgrath/citilink.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997
To: Apistogramma mailing List <apisto/majordomo.pobox.com>

> Today I just purchase some A. cacatuoides Rio Ucayali  at a local Fish
> auction. Are these just regular Apisto?
> 
The Rio Ucayali is the River where the Apisto. cacatuoides is found.
So yes, they are normal apistos. Enjoy em. I just had my mom eat
her 2 day old eggs for no good reason. =(
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Apisto ID

by Jota Melgar <76644.2370/compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997
To: "INTERNET:apisto/majordomo.pobox.com" <apisto/majordomo.pobox.com>

George wrote:

>Today I just purchase some A. cacatuoides Rio Ucayali  at a local Fish
auction. Are these just regular Apisto?<

The Rio Ucayali is a pretty big river, almost 600 km long and together with
the Rio Maranon form the Rio Amazonas.  A. cacatuoides can be found
throughout the Ucayali and as far up as the city of Iquitos and its
surroundings. Pretty big range for an Apisto. Good luck with your new
acquisition.

Julio

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Apisto ID

by Frauley/Elson <fraulels/minet.ca>
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Michael W McGrath wrote:
> 
> > Today I just purchase some A. cacatuoides Rio Ucayali  at a local Fish
> > auction. Are these just regular Apisto?
> >
> The Rio Ucayali is the River where the Apisto. cacatuoides is found.
> So yes, they are normal apistos. Enjoy em. I just had my mom eat
> her 2 day old eggs for no good reason. =(

Hi,
	The Ucayali is A river where cacatuoides is found. The form in question
is from above Iquitos. Totally unscientifically, the form labelled 'rio
ucayali' is a yellow caca with wildly large extensions on the dorsal -
much larger than the captive-bred forms, and most wild forms I've seen.
The tips of the extensions are red, but there's no other red on the body
or fins. The tag is an attempt to differentiate them from the blue
cacatuoides that comes from the same general region. 
	There's also an aquarium strain that is yellow, but has no significant
fin extensions (inbreeding?). I admit, I'm guilty of having tacked the
tag on - it seemed like a step towards keeping this high dorsal strain
distinct. I've seen a lot of cacatuoides and this one stuck out as
something very attractive. I'd hate to see it crossed with captive form
cacatuoides and then just washed out in the gene pool.
	Good luck with them.
Gary

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Cacatuoides chasing neons

by "George Barwood" <george.barwood/dial.pipex.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Me>>On the whole the neons seem to be coping, so I think I will leave them in
Me>> for the moment.

Kaycy> If they seem to be doing ok, I would just leave them. And it doesn't matter
Kaycy> how large your male is, if she gets aggressive enough, her small size can
Kaycy> still do a lot of damage.

I now have a load of cacatuoides fry :)

The male wasn't getting beaten up, but I think he was snacking on the fry, so I have now 
removed him. (I hope this isn't a libel - the female sucks them into her mouth to move 
them, but I think the male was just eating them).

The fry (about 2mm long) are now cruising round part of the tank with their mother, 
apparently feeding on something on the algae (small protozoa I guess). She is keeping the 
neons away with no trouble.

Should I provide special food for the fry? 
(My instinct is not to - I think they are finding 'natural' food in the tank)

Any other hints please? I should say that my aim is not to maximise the number of fry 
that survive, but I would like to see a few survive, with minimum intervention.

One problem - we are going away for 4 days a Christmas 
  (1) will the tank be OK without food for this time?
  (2) is it better to leave the lights on or off? (the tank doesn't have a timer) 

Thanks in advance,
George (pretty excited, my first fry ever)

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Cacatuoides chasing neons

by Fredrik.Ljungberg/saab.se
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

On Dec 18,  1:38pm, EXT AVS; \George Barwood\ wrote:
> Subject: Re: Cacatuoides chasing neons
>
>
> I now have a load of cacatuoides fry :)
>
> The male wasn't getting beaten up, but I think he was snacking on the fry, so
I have now
> removed him. (I hope this isn't a libel - the female sucks them into her
mouth to move
> them, but I think the male was just eating them).
>
> The fry (about 2mm long) are now cruising round part of the tank with their
mother,
> apparently feeding on something on the algae (small protozoa I guess). She is
keeping the
> neons away with no trouble.
>
> Should I provide special food for the fry?
> (My instinct is not to - I think they are finding 'natural' food in the tank)
>
> Any other hints please? I should say that my aim is not to maximise the
number of fry
> that survive, but I would like to see a few survive, with minimum
intervention.
>
> One problem - we are going away for 4 days a Christmas
>   (1) will the tank be OK without food for this time?
>   (2) is it better to leave the lights on or off? (the tank doesn't have a
timer)
>
> Thanks in advance,
> George (pretty excited, my first fry ever)
>

Congrats George!

I've had males working in perfect harmony with the females, even taking
over the first spawn when the female had a second. Sometimes, however,
they are only intrested in the spawning and may eat the fry.

A few may survive if not fed special fry food but I'd recommend hatching
some brine shrimp or culturing micro (a small worm). Keep them with the
female for 4 weeks, or more even. If kept alone, she will tend for them
until they're 2-3 months old. It's hard to only raise a few either you
feed or you don't. I usually raise 20-40 to adults, a convenient batch-
size.

A 4 day abscence is no problem unless the tank is newly started. Try
putting in a big chunk of Javamoss and let the algae stay in the tank,
they'll find lots of edible stuff in there. I have all my tanks on
timers, regular on and off times makes the fish feel more comfortable
(I think), otherwise you can keep the lights on.


Good luck!

//Fredrik



-- 
Fredrik.Ljungberg-at-saab.se
Saab Ab 
Flutter and Loads Department
voice +46 13 18 54 60, fax +46 13 18 33 63

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cactuoides fry

by "Darren J. Hanson" <djhanson/calweb.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

At 11:38 AM 1/1/98 +0000, George Barwood wrote:
>My A. cacatuoides fry (about 30) are now 2 weeks old, and about 6mm long (max).
>Some of them are noticeably bigger than others - are these males, or is it
just that 
>some are thriving better? 
Yes. Some are just thriving better than the others.

>At some point I plan to move some or all of them from the 10 gall. they are
in to a 
>35 gall. which currently has 3 adult male blue rams, their father, Zebra
Danios, 
>Harlequins and Corydoras in it (I only have two tanks). The tank is
planted, but there 
>isn't a lot of good cover. 
One problem you may run into with the father being in there as well, is that
he will want to start spawning with the young females and if they aren't
ready he will chase them to death. I just went through this in a very well
planted tank. The large dominate male cacatuoide apparently eliminated all
the females and all that is left is the younger males. As you said your tank
doesn't provide good cover. My tank did and I still have no females. I would
suggest removing that male when you move the others into the tank. Any males
that become dominate should be removed when needed.

>How large/old will the A. cacatuoides fry need to be to have a reasonable
chance of 
>surviving? (The father could be moved back to the 10 gall. if that helps)
I myself would wait until the fry are at least 3/4" before placing with the
adult fish. 

>Any other suggestions/observations?
as for the other tank mates they should be fine. The Zebra Danios are a very
active fish. I have them as well and I have spawned them and the parents are
in a 100 gallon community tank and chase each other and anyone else they
can. They don't seem to hurt the other fish as far as battle scars but they
do stress them out by constant chasing.

Good Luck
Kaycy


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Apisto. Fry`s

by Michael W McGrath <mcgrath/citilink.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998
To: Apistogramma mailing List <apisto/majordomo.pobox.com>

> 
> My Apisto. cacatuoides (Triple Red) fry`s are free swimming since last
> Thursday. How long should I wait before I separate the fry`s from the
> parents? Don`t want to lose any fry`s . Lost enough fry`s due to the ice
> 

I've breed mine several times in different setups. One mom was allowed to
raise they fry for 2 months in a 20g tank without the dad. The dad
bred with a  2nd female in a 30g community tank a few times. In the 20g
tank she was able to riase about 20 fry. In the 30g comm tank only about
10 or less lived. I think it really depends on the parents, and when they
fry have loads of mosses to hide in, makes it easier for them to hide.
Good luck.

Mike

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Problems with wild A. cacatuoides. Ph to low?

by Jota Melgar <jsmelgar/compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998
To: "INTERNET:apisto/majordomo.pobox.com" <apisto/majordomo.pobox.com>

Bob Dixon wrote:

> If anything, the pH is too HIGH for wild fish.  I would work on getting=

> hardness down to about DH4 or lower.  Mardel Tank soft, or Waters of th=
e
world
> for SA fish.

Actually, for A. cacatuoides is a bit low. A. cacatuoides is found from
Pucallpa, Peru throughout the Rio Ucayali, all the way up to Iquitos and,=

perhaps, as far north as the Rio Putumayo. The Ucayali is an alkaline riv=
er
with a pH of approximately 7.6. We collected A. cacatuoides along the
Iquitos-Nauta highway at a pH of 7.6. The species has also been collected=

at a much lower pH so I wouldn't worry about changing anything. All in al=
l,
A. cacatuoides is probably the most high-pH tolerant species of the genus=
=2E =


Julio Melgar


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Bounce [Blue Apistogramma cacatuoides?]

by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

I have this fish now. It is a wild form of A. cacatuoides. I got mine because the
females has an interesting spattering of black spots all over the flanks and
head. These get darker when the females breed.

Mike Wise

Francis Brian O'Carroll wrote:

> Frank@algonet.se - the proper address is apisto@LISTBOX.com.
> apisto admin
>
> ------- Forwarded Message
>
> Message-ID: <3656D776.762D@algonet.se>
> Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 16:08:39 +0100
> From: frank@algonet.se
> Reply-To: frank@algonet.se
> To: Mailinglista Apisto <apisto@aquaria.net>
> Subject: Blue Apistogramma cacatuoides?
>
> Hi
>
> I am new to this list and I dont know if it is possible to send a pic to
> this mailinglist, so I just send you a link to the pic I am about to
> talk about.
>
> You find the pic at:
> http://www.algonet.se/~frank/akvaria/fiskar/ap-c-blue.jpg
>
> This is supposed to be a blue Apistogramma cacatuoides. Does enybody
> know enything about this fish? Is it a cacatuoides? Where can i get hold
> of it?
>
> I will be happy for enything you can tell me about this blue
> cacatuoides.
>
> Take care,
> Frank from Sweden
>
> ------- End of Forwarded Message
>
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Bounce [Blue Apistogramma cacatuoides?]

by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

All,

I am combining all of your questions into one.

Mike Wise

frank@algonet.se wrote:

> Mike & Diane Wise wrote:
> >
> > I have this fish now. It is a wild form of A. cacatuoides. I got mine because the
> > females has an interesting spattering of black spots all over the flanks and
> > head. These get darker when the females breed.
>
> Hi
>
> So then in is tru. It really is a wild form of cacatuoides. So now to
> the next problem: how to get them to sweden where I live ...

Surprisingly, they are not that uncommon in shipments of wild caught A. cacatuoides. I
have had this form a couple times before. It is difficult to see the blue fins without
using a flashlight/torch when in a dealer's tank - especially if they are very young. I
bought mine when they were about 3.5 cm (1 1/2 in) long. At this size there was only a
hint of blue in the fins. Avoid those that have large red or black ocelli on the caudal
fin. I've never seen a blue cacatuoides (wild) that had these.

> Is there anything you can tell me about them? Do they want the same kind
> of food/water etc as the other cacatuoides?

They live and behave like any other form of A. cacatuoides I've ever owned.

> Is it hard to get them to breed?

They breed like any other A. cacatuoides I've ever had. No problem at all.

> What size are them?

My male is about 3 1/2 in. (9 cm) TL, females 2 1/4 in (6 cm).

> Do you know their locations in the wild?
>
> Frank
>
> frank@algonet.se

No, but I once found a blue male in a shipment of Blue Tetras (Boehlkea fredcochui).
This tetra is reported to be collected around Leticia, Colombia on the upper Amazon

>       Date:
>             Sun, 22 Nov 1998 14:41:51 -0500
>       From:
>             Geo/Len <szucs@total.net>
>    > Hi Mike
>
> Are they as nice as the photo????

Yes, the blue fins are that blue, but the body of my male is a slightly more muddy
yellow, not the clean yellow shown in the photo. My male is more elongate, like a
normal A. cacatuoides. Its caudal has no red spots at all, just rows of fine blue dots
on it.

> George

>         Date:
>              Sun, 22 Nov 1998 11:56:08 -0800
>         From:
>              MICHAEL SERPA <mserpa@bayweb.net>
>  Organization:
>              Bay Island Orchids
>           To:
>              apistowise@bewellnet.com
>
> Mike, are any available?

>         Michael
> --
> Michael Serpa * Bay Island Orchids
> 2311 Pacific Avenue * Alameda, CA 94501
> Tel: (510) 521-8245 *  Fax: (510) 865-1787
> http://www.bayislandorchids.com

Not right now. Although they have spawned repeatedly, I've never tried to remove any of
the fry from the tank yet. They are in a 18X16 in. (48x40 cm) tank (1 m, 3 f) with some
dwarf Ancistrus catfish.  I don't expect to keep any fry alive for long in such a small
crowded tank. I am rearranging stands in my fish room and I'm not trying to breed fish
right now. When things get reorganized, then I'll start breeding again. Right now my
fish are lucky to get a water change each month and fed once a day. I didn't realize
that there was so much interest in non-red A. cacatuoides. I guess I'll have to start
breeding some.

> Subject:
>           Re: Bounce [Blue Apistogramma cacatuoides?] -Reply
>      Date:
>           Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:06:00 -0600
>     From:
>           William Vannerson <William_Vannerson@ama-assn.org>
>
> The blue coloration is reminiscent of the infamous "U2" photo that has
> been discussed a while back.  It's still early so I can't recall what
> publication it appeared in>  I think it was in a pamphlet _know Your
> Cichlids._

The photo you remember is by Van den Nieuwenhuizen, found on page 27 of the booklet
Enjoy Your Cichlids by Rosario La Corte - one of America's best, but least known,
aquarium fish breeders. This book was also important because it had one of the very few
photos of Dicrossus maculatus (by Wolfsheimer) available until recently. This booklet
was published by The Pet Library Ltd. of London in the early 70s and later incorporated
into some TFH publications after it was bought out by TFH. Now, of course, it's
discontinued.

> The fish in the photo was completely blue.  It was also in an aggresive
> posture.  Could the body in the wild blue form turn blue during breeding?
> Mike?

> Bill Vannerson
> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/william_vannerson

Well, they weren't completely blue. They had a yellowish gold body with metallic blue
spangles reflecting the light. They look more like mine than the web photo. A lot of
the color is the result of the flash used to photograph the fish. My male looks the
same when I shine a flashlight on him.

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A. cacatoides spawning

by BigJohnW/webtv.net (John Wubbolt)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

It's been my experiece that the eggs take a few days to hatch and become
wigglers.   Once they become wigglers it takes about 3 to 4 days before
they turn from bright red little wigglers and become free swimming.
Once the they hatch and become wigglers the female will be very diligent
about guarding them.   If the male starts hanging out too close to the
fry the female will chase him away or allow him to take turns guarding
the fry while she goes out and eat.   I've had pairs where the male was
a good parent and helped in raising the fry and I've also had males that
just liked to chomp down on the fry.   The best thing I can tell you is
to observe the males behavior.  If he doesn't eat the fry you're in
luck.   But  if he does you'll have to remove him or wait until the next
spawn and then remove him.  The females are always good moms.   I've
never had a problem with any female eating her fry.   I raise both
Double Reds and the Wild blue form and I have to remove the dads from
the tank while the females guards her clutch of fry.   Once the fry are
about 1 month old and eating everything you offer them, they should be
about alittle bigger than a 1/4 inch and looking like little cichlids.
It's at this time that I set a new tank and place the male and female in
it together so they can spawn again.   Good luck.   It's always fun
watching them spawn.   


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A. cacatuoide - hybrid

by Frauley/Elson <fraulels/minet.ca>
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Mike Roberts wrote:
> 
> A question about color differences in these fish (A. cacatuoide)  A semi
> local fish store (90 miles away) imports Apistogramma sp. on a regular
> basis.
> 
> On his next order he has availability of:
> 
> Apistogramma cacatuoides double red xxlg
> [..]
> Apistogramma cacatuoides triple red
> 
> What is the difference in these two besides appearance?  Does anyone know
> where I can see a picture of the "triple red" on the net?
> 
> I have found a lot of nice pictures of the "double red" but none of the
> "triple red".
> 
> Mike Roberts
I am extremely skeptical of double/triple red designations. There are
two problems in my experience of these fish:
it seems a common practice for some commercial breeders, prior to the
wholesaler getting hold of the fish, to send along females from
unselected forms. It's really hard to get a nice bunch of fry,
colourwise
I've also seen breeders who did have triple red (colour in the dorsal,
caudal) sell their colour culls as double red. they can be from the same
spawning, just with a lot less red.
They're still pretty fish. I'm keeping a nice 'double-red' that's my
only selected apisto - indeed, my only selected fish. It's just that if
you pay extra for 'triple' you may just see it for the lifetime of the
individual male. When I first bred my doubles, the first generation was
quite a drop in redness, but over a few generations, they've stabilized
into have the kind of red-orange you sometimes see on wilds, but in
quantities you never see on wild fish.
-Gary
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------


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A. cacatoides "Red-Flash"

by George and Carol Richter <richter/erols.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

I breed triple red cacatoides and am surprised at some of the comments
and discussion of them I have seen in the Apisto Digest of late. 
Remember that these fish were "created" through selective breeding.  If
you stop selecting, they revert to the wild coloration.  When I get a
spawn one half to three quarters are true triple reds, the rest are
mostly doubles, and a few I would not even term doubles.  The culls are
often sold as doubles - which is what they are.  

You must select the "best" ones for the next generation.  If you expect
them to breed true, you need a genetics text book.  They do not.  This
is especially tough because the females are not so obvious in their
colors. That's why they still are not very cheap.  Good triple red
females will show quite a bit of red in their fins.  If the females have
almost no red they are probably not triple or even double reds at all. 
Don't buy them.  Some folks will slip in some wild types.  Some of my
females actually show black striations in their caudal and dorsal fins.
I also breed wild type cacatoides.  Like some of the folks on this list
I like the non-medled with varieties.  For some reason I seem to get
more males from my highly inbred triples and more females from the wild
types.  I do not know why or if that is common but you can see the
temptation.  

I even have some males with red and black striations on their pecs -
quadrupal red if you will.

Bottom line - if you want good lifestock you have to deal with good
people like dave.

P.S. I also would like a line on these blues I keep hearing about.  I
know some of mine have lots of blue in the face and I am beginning to
select for it but replacing the red with that same blue would cause me
to buy a few new tanks.


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A. cacatoides "Red-Flash"

by Bob Wiltshire <apistobob/yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999
To: apisto list <apisto/majordomo.pobox.com>

First let me apologize if I am screwing this up. As a list newbie I'm
entitled to make a few mistakes.

I recieved a private (I think) E-mail from a list member asking about
my cacatoides 'Red-flash'. I sent the reply thinking it would go to
the list, but, I think it only went to the original sender. I am
hoping someone on the list can help out with this.

Please excuse me if this is a duplicate

Bob
------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for asking about the "Red Flash". You notice I put a question
mark after this ID. I use the name red flash because the only picture
I have seen that comes close to showing what these fish look like is
in the Aqualog pg. 26 bottom right. In this photo they are called
red-flash, however, in the photo immediately above a similar looking
fish is called gold-orange.

I first obtained these in 1995? (I'm at work and my notes are at home)
and they were called German Orange. The fish were sold in pairs and I
think that whoever exported them wanted to slow their spread as the
first generation of offsprung were some of the ugliest cacs I have
ever seen. I don't know what type of females they were paired with,
but, definately not the same as the male.

I spent about 4 generations crossbreeding them to get a good looking
fish and the strains I now have are outstanding. Many of the males
have solid orange caudals of the most vibrant orange I have ever seen.
The dorsals are also very orange as are the anal fins. The general
body is a yellow orange and they are very striking. Of course there is
a degree of variation in them and a few of the fry are still a more
traditional "double red" type. There is also variation in the degree
to which the caudal is colored. Most are at least 50% with probably
half being 75% - 100% solid orange.

I brought quite a few of these to the ACA convention in Chicago and
quickly sold them all. I have also sold quite a few of them to Anchor
Bay Aquarium who has sold them as well. I believe that at about the
time mine were imported there were also some of these in the Miami
area. I don't keep as close of touch with other breeders as I used to
and I don't know if anyone else is keeping these now, or if there is
an accepted name for this color strain. Perhaps someone else on the
list knows?

I am not a fish photographer (this has caused me frequent regret in
the past) and I don't have any photos of them. I also only know of the
Aqualog photos. I seem to recall that Cichlid News ran a very poor
photo of this strain in their Whats New section about 3-4 years ago.

I currently am sitting on a ton of these and would be interested is
selling them when my shipping weather improves.

Bob




_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


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I stand corrected

by IDMiamiBob/aol.com
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999
To: apisto/admin.listbox.com

Last night as I was on my way to bed, I spotted a female A. cacatuoides 
guarding a clutch of about 60 eggs- on TOP of the suction cup of a 
submersible heater.  There were no cave structures, as this is a grow-out 
tank.  She was only 5 months old.  Dave Sanchez stated a few months ago that 
his Apistos reached sexual maturity in 4 months, and I said 7 was more like 
it.

Well, now mine are spawning at 5, so I was wrong, and perhaps 4 months is 
feasible under ideal conditions.  It should be noted that in the five months 
since they hatched, they were moved once from a ten gallon to a twenty that 
had been freshly set up with new water just for this purpose, and again last 
month from the twenty to a thirty, again with fresh water.  They also 
received 10% daily changes for the first three weeks, and every other day for 
a month after that, before they went to the twenty-gallon.  Then the routine 
10% weekly.  I would guess that overall, nitrate and DOC levels have been 
kept fairly low.  Food for the last week has been earthworm flakes in the 
morning, and a mix of Tetraminh and frozen brine in the evening.  From 
hatchout to five days old, they were not fed, as the spawning tank was heavy 
with algae.  From five days until four months, they received de-cap almost 
exclusively.

I couldn't see any males guarding the perimeter.  Typical teenage boys.  
Hit-and-run.  Also, none of the males in the tank have their extended dorsal 
rays yet, though I moved one along with a largish female a week ago into a 
ten by themselves.  Today I see her dancing for him, and trying to coax him 
into a cave of her choice, but he's not biting just yet.

I haven't been softening the water in these tanks, because it seemed too 
early to worry about it.  Cacatuoides are reputed to accept harder water than 
most Apistos, but mine never have before.  This female and "probably" a mate 
did the did at GH 5, KH5, and pH 7.6.  This is certainly in the normal range 
for the species, but mine are many generations from wild, and have always 
spawned more willingly when peat is added to the water.

I have a high female/male ratio in this batch of "triple reds".  If anyone 
would like to send a few males about the same age in exchange for a few 
females, email me off-list.

Bob Dixon


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Sexing cacatoos

by BigJohnW/webtv.net (John Wubbolt)
Date: Sun, 23 May 1999
To: apisto/admin.listbox.com

Hello Bob
I have both the triple red form and the double red form.   When I
originally asked what the difference was, I was told that females have
as much color in the dorsal, anal and caudal fins as some basic red
Cacatuoides.   My triple red females have color in all the fins.   Not
as much as the males do but color, my double red females don't have this
color and I can sex them at 1/2 inch by the black coloring in the pelvic
fins.   My female triple reds have the same black fins as my double reds
do just more color in the other fins.    I don't have any males that
have dark black front portions of the pelvic fins.   This is the method
I use to sex my fish.   
Hope this helps you out.  
John

Cacatuoides Fry Mortality

by BigJohnW/webtv.net (John Wubbolt)
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999
To: apisto/admin.listbox.com

I have several pairs of Cacatuoides that spawn  on a regular basis.
One pair are good parents and don't bother the fry at all including Dad.
The other pair is young and just getting the hang of this spawning
stuff.   The last pair has Daddy who likes to eat some fry.   Here's
what I do for this pair.   When they spawn, I leave the pair in there
for the first 24 hours.   Mom does a good job here guarding and fanning
the eggs.   I then remove Dad to a seperate tank.   I leave mom alone
with the fry.   I've found almost all females are good mothers in
Apistos.   It's Rams where I have the opposite problem.   When  the fry
are up and swimming, I start feeding them microworms and baby brine
shrimp.   Sometimes baby brine shrimp I think is too big for all the fry
and they can't eat it, this is why I also use microworms.    Once they
are 3 days old I go strictly baby brine shrimp for the fry and start
adding some crushed flake food for the mom.   Some of the fry will
actually pick at this crushed flake food.   After 3 to 4 weeks I add
crushed flake food everyday for the fry.   I still feed baby brine
shrimp to the fry.   This way they get 2 different foods to pick from.
At this age I also remove the female and put her in a new set up
breeding tank with the male so they can breed again.   I haven't had any
problems so far.   It is kind of important to siphon off the uneaten
foods as this will foul the water.   Hope this has helped.    I have
raised thousands of Cacatuoides in this manner over the last 5 years or
so.   
John Wubbolt

first spawning stories?

by BigJohnW/webtv.net (John Wubbolt)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999
To: apisto/admin.listbox.com

Well I'll bite on first apisto spawning.   It was around 5 years ago
when I found a fellow club member was keeping several apistos and had
some for sale.   I ended up buying a pair of Apistogramma Cacatuoides
and a pair of Nannacara Anomola.    I set them up in 10 gallon tanks
side by side, with a thin layer of gravel, 2 medium sized clay flower
pots turned on their sides and each was powered by Whisper C power
filters ( this was before I discovered hydro sponges) .    I fed them
mostly tetra bits, good tetra ruby flake food and live baby brine shrimp
as their main diet foods.
About a month goes by and I notice the female Cacatuoides was real
bright yellow.   She was about 1inch at this time, male was a double red
color form ( father to all generations of Cacatuoides I still keep
today) and was about 2 inches now.   The next day the female was sitting
under a clutch of bright red eggs around 40 or so in number.   A few
days later, they were wigglers now in the bottom of the flower pot,
several days later they were up and swimming around.   I left the fry
which numbered an even 30 with the adults for around 1.5 months.   Then
I set up a new tank for the adults so they could spawn again.   My water
conditions were a pH of around 6.5, 60 ppm hardness and a temperature
around 78 F.   When the fry grew out I ended up with 26 males and 4
females,  I was happy that I had 4 females and set up 2 pairs from this
batch of fry to continue as my breeding stock.   I was the happiest
little camper at my clubs annual auction when I sold my first 2 pairs of
Cacatuoides.   I don't remember what I got for them but I was happy that
people kept looking at MY fish.   That first batch of fry got me hooked
into apistos.   I since then have spawned around 17 different species.
I'm hooked on these little guys forever.   I don't know what right or
wrong things I did, as far as I'm concerned I did things right because I
ended up with fry.   Sorry for rambling on so long.

John Wubbolt

Distinguishing female apistogramma

by Ken Laidlaw <K.Laidlaw/roe.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999
To: apisto/admin.listbox.com

> I am wondering if there is any way to distinguish female cacatuoides from
> viejita. Any help would be greatly appreciated - a couple of fish got
> themselves mixed up.

You should be able to see the charateristic zig zag 
markings under the laterla line of the cacatuiodes. 
Ken.




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WARNING newbie type questions

by IDMiamiBob/aol.com
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

In a message dated 6/20/00 12:43:17 AM Mountain Daylight Time, relli@aye.net 
writes:

<Snip>> I have two questions, how big a problem are snails as far as possible 
eggs go?

It' a really big problem.  If they find them they will eat them.

>  And is it safe to add some other fish in a tank this size

It's not even really safe for the male in a ten gallon tank.  As soon as she 
starts hounding him, you will need to move him out.  Other wise, she will 
harass him to death.  I breed mine in tens, but I always watch for when the 
male is no longer welcome.  That's a sure sign there's eggs in there 
somewhere.

Bob Dixon


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My first brood of fry.

by Frauley/Elson <fraulels/minet.ca>
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Beaudry, Kyle : SEN wrote:
> 
> Thank you all for your advice and recommendations.
> 
> Something finally worked, I can't remember who exactly said it but patience
> was the ultimate factor.
> My A. Cacatuoides have a brood of 15-20 fry in my tank. I did a jig on
> Saturday a.m. when I first saw them.
> It took my two females four clutches of eggs each before I found free
> swimmers.
> The little 'uns are now 3mm and eating BBS until their bellies are pink with
> shrimp.
> Probably old hand for most of you reading this but remember back to your
> first clutch and forgive me my tyrade for it will be my last about such
> trivial matters.
> 
> I'm changing 10% of H20 every 36 hours and watching parameters closely.
> I intend to leave them in for a couple of weeks with the mother until they
> are large enough for the rearing tank.
> Is there anything special I need to know before moving them? I will post
> questions for the nursery at a later date.
> 
> Thanks for listening.
> 
> The OVAS annual auction was a success.
> 
> K.
Kyle,
Keep an eye on your male, as sometimes they'll rip up a first brood,
Your tank is big, so it's probably safe. With my first cacatuoides
brood, the male attacked the fry after two weeks, eating them all - the
female defended them ferociously (from the forensic evidence - I was at
work) and died in the process, while the male died of his wounds later
that evening. It was like the ending of an tragedy - no one was standing
except a school of pencil fish, who seemed bored...
I've had minor versions since, although never in a tank with a base of
more than 24 inches/ 60 cm. It isn't a rare thing, but it isn't common
either. The only common thread to these rearing breakdowns is they've
always happened when I told friends who wanted cacatuoides that I had
lots of fry...

Gary


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Cacatuoides double or triple red?

by J Miller <ruddigar_99/yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000
To: apisto/listbox.com

Joel,

  The difference between a double red and triple red cacatoo is, the
double red will have the red on the dorsal and caudal fins, while the
triple red has the red on the anal fin as well.  In my experience, the
triple reds usually have even more red on the fins than the double red.
  
  I used to breed the triple reds, but the last two broods were all
male - maybe the temp was too high.  But the thing I liked about them
is that they'd breed any time, without warning.  Very eager.

HTH.



=====
J. Miller
Edmonton, AB, Can.

Cacatuoides double or triple red?

by IDMiamiBob/aol.com
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000
To: apisto/listbox.com

Triple red males will have only limited amounts more red than double reds.  
Female triple reds however, show some of the red-and-black flame pattern on 
their fins when they go into spawning color.  The big marker on males is the 
anal fin.  Double reds will have little or no color there, while triple reds 
from a good line will have a lot of red there.

Bob Dixon

Cacatuoides spawn

by Dickenshed/aol.com
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001
To: apisto/listbox.com

Well, my smallest female cacatuoides orange (barely an inch) has spawned with 
my biggest male (about 2"). There seems to be about 10 fry in the community 
tank where they spawned (2 prs of cacatuoides; 1 pr. cruzi and 6 Laetacara(?) 
curviceps). If they survive the next couple of days, I'll try to save them.

Joel Antkowiak

Triple Red?

by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001
To: apisto/listbox.com

Eric,

Your definition of Triple Red Cacatuoides is the same as mine. You have to
realize, however, that Double Reds and Triple Reds come from the same source
stock. Triple Reds are merely the super colorful forms that are produced by
Double Reds. Neither strain is completely "set". Because of this, a pair of
Double Reds will produce a few Triple Reds and visa versa. Your dealer bought
them as Double Reds and is selling them as Double Reds. If you pull out the
Triple Reds you get a bonus for being a knowledgeable aquarist. Of course the
same thing can happen with Triple Reds. Not all will be true Triple Reds even
though their parents were. If you aren't careful, you lose.

Mike Wise

Eric Martina wrote:

> I was wondering if anyone could clear up what the difference between "Double
> Red" and "Triple Red" is? I always thought that "Double" red meant the fish
> had red on it's dorsal and caudal fin, and "Triple" meant it had red on it's
> dorsal, caudal, and anal fins. But I have seen many fish sold, both at my
> LFS and online, that were being sold as double red, although they clearly
> had red on all three fins. So is my definition wrong, or are the pet stores
> being overly cautious?
>
> Thanks,
> Eric
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Eric Martina
> University of Illinois
> Electrical Engineering
>

Cac's - Single, double and triple reds

by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001
To: apisto/listbox.com

Matt,

I've not heard of a "single red", but such a fish used to be called "red tail"
or "red". As I understand it, a "double red" has a lot of red on the dorsal as
well as the tail; a "triple red" has a lot of red on the dorsal, caudal, and
anal fins. Since these are commercial names, not set strains, the amount of red
can vary from individual to individual.

Mike Wise

Matthew Rogers wrote:

> All,
>
> Any chance you could set the record straight for me and let me know what the
> definitions are of single, double and triple red cacatoides. I understand it
> refers to which fins are red, but I am wondering how much red has to be
> present on each fin to qualify.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Matt.
>


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